An Open Discussion on WebsiteBaker's future

[Ryan]

Hello everyone,

I am writing this post in an effort to open up discussions on the future of WebsiteBaker, and to receive some feedback about what the community in general would like to see happen with version 2.x

First let me start by saying, WebsiteBaker 3 will be free and Open Source. However, to ensure that I can commit more of my time to the ongoing development, I have found a way to integrate it into my working day; I have started a company that will offer a slightly modified (additional modules, etc) and rebranded version as a fully hosted Software-as-a-Server (Saas) application, for a small fee. It will be based off the same code-base, and therefore will make it a part of my job to maintain the code on a regular basis (and not just after-hours). I believe this will have a large impact on ensuring the code is well maintained and frequently updated.

To give everyone a quick update on the development of version 3: alpha2 is expected to be ready for release in the coming day(s), we should see a beta within weeks and hopefully an RC before the years end. This means by January/February next year, 3.0 will be released as stable. For the latest status, visit the version 3 page at: www.WebsiteBaker.or g/3

Now, with regards to WebsiteBaker 2. As some of you may be aware, several community members are currently in the process of forking the current version 2 release into a new project. I have communicated with them on this, and although I do not think it is the best for efficiency purposes, I cannot stop them from doing it so I believe it is best to support them in any way I can. However, since examining the current position of the community a little closer, I've come to realise that our community is becoming very fractured and divided. Yes for the last few years development has basically stalled (mainly due to my poor efforts in delivering version 3 following the initial announcement 3 years ago), however I believe the most recent 2.7 release was a very positive step forward.

Ideally, I would love to see a 2.8 release within the coming months. I think it would not be unreasonable to make some fairly significant structural changes, that really do need to be done. I don't think it would matter if users are required to run a special upgrade script to migrate to 2.8, as in the past minor releases required this also (e.g. upgrading from 2.6.x to 2.7.x). However, the chances of realising a 2.8 release at the moment are dim; as a community our resources seem to be very scattered and inactive. This is due to poor leadership. I accept for responsibility for the poor leadership over the last few years.

Although I was trying to concentrate on my education in 2006/2007, it is no excuse for letting down our community and its members. However, I see no point in worrying about the past. I simply would like to move forward, and would like to see our community and project move forward. This is why I am calling for some open discussion on the projects future.

WebsiteBaker 3 is something that, as outlined above, will be managed by myself on a day-to-day basis. It is therefore a non-issue for me finding the time to be managing the project. However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.

Also, if anyone has feedback on how they think our teams should be structured, who should be in which teams, etc. please provide feedback.

The main motivation for this post is to avoid have two projects running side-by-side, duplicating the amount of work. It is possibly too late to be posting this, as some community members may have already made their minds up on forking. However, I believe it would be best for everyone if we could work together. Please do not hesitate to speak up on this matter. I look forward to your thoughts and feedback!

Ryan

[Stefek]

Hello Ryan.
Thanks for this open discussion.

I am member of the community since a year and - maybe another ones will disagree with me -  I think the comunity made amazing progress in the last few months.
You are right in that point, that there is to less effort in the manner of shoulder-to-shoulder activities.

However, I don't think, that a WB Fork will survive for long after separating from the official community.

And I know, that there is a lot of chances for the future of WB 2.x (at that time I can't say anything about WB3).
New ways of expansion, new ways to get people involved.

I'm very optimistic in this point.

I can't say too much about the Leadership. They're trying the best to keep WB going and we are hardly working on new stategies to improve the popularity of WB. I am very optimistic, that we will do a good job here.
I am also curious about the WB 2.8 - I don't know when it will be released, because I am not so much involved in the Core-Developement. But I am sure this will be the best release ever.

There is another Point I want to give certainty to all WebsiteBaker Users and the Community.
I attatched a Statistic Graph which shows the statistics from the starting point of the WB Project until the present time.
As you see, the the activity increases.



One thing we really need (as you can see in the next Graph), is new members - and this is not the part of the Dev-Team. The System is quite OK.



The Marketing Team is working on new Strategies to expand WebsiteBaker, it's understanding, acceptance.
We're just a few and because we also are running our own businesses, the work is not as fast as we wish, but there is no reason for frustration.

WebsiteBaker lives 

But you are also right, that you wasn't active here for so long.
But as you know, the Community understands your personal needs and there is no one who will mind to blame you for this.

Thank you for WebsiteBaker.

I am looking forward to the WB 2.8 and will contribute to this project as much as I can.

Regards,
Stefek

[mr-fan]

hi,
im a simple user since about an half jear!
my english is poor, my knowledge about the www is poor....
but i'm eager for knowledge, i cram the stuff, the forum is great with all his talented several members...
so that the this is the wonder of WebsiteBaker.
such a guy like me can creat a website!

for me, as simple user the only thing should be to bring back a consistant struktur in the wb-world.
for example the new helpsides or the topic with the needs for new released moduls...

in fact wb it is worth the trouble of hard work! (this was a newbie's mind;)
regards martin

EDIT: About the fork stuff...... for me as a farmer (yes a farmer;) the adage counts
              "evolution beats always revolution all along"
at least in my business...but i think it is one of the first ever and portable to all the rest of them

regards martin 

[Stefek]

Hello Martin,

thank you.
Even 250 new registrations per month is woth doing it, right 

for me, as simple user the only thing should be to bring back a consistant struktur in the wb-world.
for example the new helpsides or the topic with the needs for new released moduls...

Yes, the Help Project is the main point in order to make WB more '"getable" and accessible.

As I told above, we are creating something really awesome right now.
Everyone who is loving WB will fall in love even more.
For this is the hard work and I hope to double and tripple the registrations rate once we are finished.

May the WB Community flourish and prosper.

Regards,
Stefek

[bupaje]

I have been very happy with WB and the community. Some stuff goes unanswered but I have always felt more comfortable with WB compared with some of the monster packages out there. Assuming I could afford it I would move to a paid version with better support if you switched. I'm a fan now so I don't really want to go anywhere else and learn something new as long as WB continues to meet my modest needs.

I have no suggestions on the teams.

[erpe0812]

Hi Ryan

I am representing a group of about 10 active communtiy members.

However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.

For we think wb 2.X is worth to get more and deeper attention and should be developed to a higher level ( and yes, we agree that wb is deseasing under poor leadership and less structure),  we are willing to take your offer to step into project administration at all.
Please let me know, how and when this could happen from your point of view.
We also see, that a fork is a feasible way, but we agrree with you,  that holding the community together would be the better way.
I appologize for my poor English but I hope you could get this post as it was meant.

Would like to hear your suggestions soon.

Best wishes

erpe

PS: Maybe it would lead to more success to take this thread to the German and other language forums too...............

[johnp]

I would like to say hello to everyone in the WebsiteBaker Community and introduce myself!

I am John, Though I have only been with the WebsiteBaker Community for a little over
a year now and have tried to be a part of the community on a daily bases and answer
to request and your post.

This was not my intention to bring this matter into such a public forum for discussion.

But for once I am glade to see some effort in Ryan to bring a very serious matter to the
community. Though I think the way this has now been handled was and is in poor
judgment on Ryan's part. And in my upon prematurely on his part. Though some emails
past back and forth about this matter between Ryan and I. This was the one thing that
should not have come to light.

Though I am standing strong that a new direction of leadership, team development
and complete structure of WebsiteBaker needs to take place and be formed and
this is the reason I and a few others decided to create a fork in the road.

Though post like this

However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.

is by forth just one of the reasons there is problems within the Website baker community.
Because community members are bring up matters not team leaders or team members.

I believe a very serious effort to move forward with the next version within the 2.x development is needed
but this can't be done until some issues like

• Leadership
• Structure
• Development
• SVN
• Contribution Area
• Better contact with community members

are just a small part of a bigger and serious issues.
And in my option should not have reach this point
unless all means were exhausted by communications
directly with Ryan and I.

I don't know, but I think some questions that are not being asked are

Is it to late?
Did this get so far out of hand there is no turning back?
Is it an issue that should have got this far?
Is this something that could have been resolved?
Will this bring the community closer in development?
Is Ryan now lessoning to the community concerns now? and it is to late?
Does this community need restructuring? and if so by who?
Should this matter have come to the public or should it have been handled better in private?

This is just some of my questions and concerns.

And as I stated in my emails to Ryan, I am open to a channel of direct communication with Ryan and Doc
and offer a invataion to do so, If ether Ryan or Doc want to talk about this please Contact me..

Before this goes to far and gets out of control.

JP

[Vincent]

I must say I find it hard to understand Johnp's post. Apparently there are disagreements between Ryan and some new developers.

First of all I'd like to say that even though Ryan states to have failed as a leader, I don't blame him: he started WB as a young kid and managed to bring it as far as it is today, which I consider a truly remarkable achievement. On many occasions I was surprised by his ability to explain why he had decided the project should develop in a certain way, showing plenty and convincing leadership. Also in this particular post he shows to be open minded, explaining his motives and showing that he wants the best for all of us, without condemnation to those who want to fork the project, which makes him more mature than many elder men.

Now, one of the beautiful things of this community is that so many people are committed to WB that I hadn't even noticed the lack of direction: WB2.7 is a beautiful product, many addons are posted, and every now and then a brilliant developer joins the team or gets involved in some other way, so I'm grateful and willl stick to WB anyway.
Of course like all of us I'm curious to see WB3, and I think Ryan has made some good decisions on his commitment to the development. Also I'm a little anxious that it may take a lot more time to have WB3 as rich and functional as 2.7 is right now, but we'll wait and see.

I hope that those who want to fork the project will be able to maintain the high level support and friendliness that we have today on the forum, because I think that is one of the main 'selling points' of this CMS.

I wish Ryan good luck and Johnp c.s. good spirit and wisdom.

Vincent

[pcwacht]

My opinion on this matter as one of the older members, in wb years and in age, will be 50 in a fortnight.

First some facts:
WB2 core is good, very good, very stable
WB3 might be better, dunnoh haven't seen it yet, but can't say it will be worse!. You can't say it will be worse without seeing it.
WB community is sound, new members don't even know the leader Ryan is hardly around, as it should be in a project as this
WB community is very active

What I think,
Fork, don't, splitting up active members is stupid and to me there is no reason to fork - there are no argueing , no direction you don't want to follow etc.

WB2.8, why? What has been developped to make a new wb core? Nothing yet.

Maybe some WB commited members who are willing to put time and effort should take over the 2 branche freeing Ryan's time even more for wb3 thus keeping WB2 fibrant.

If I had time and could commit it to WB I would, really, I would ask Ryan to give me the 2 branche and try to keep it alive as it is today.

Have fun!
John

Not JohnP but PCWacht

[chio]

(sorry for my poor english)
A year ago I wrote in my german blog: WebsiteBaker is a "Bonsai CMS" - it is kept small consciously, for reasons I dont know.

If you want a tree, you shall not water a Bonsai, but take the seed and grow a real tree. Therefore I understand those WebsiteBaker Fans, who think a fork would be the best solution. I understand this, but I think it is not clever. I think, one should try to change WebsiteBaker from here - the one and only WebsiteBaker.org site.

In my opinion the problem is not too few leadership, but too much. Too much, but incapably leadership. To be a good programmer doesnt mean to be a good leader.
A lot of things going wrong here.

[bupaje]

Chio makes an interesting point. Maybe what is needed is to look at something like Blender http://www.blender.org/ did several years ago. They were great programmers but couldn't handle the management after the product really took off and the project almost died. Maybe we should look at them a little and see how the run - very very successfully since they managed to reorganize.

[doc]

Hello,

here are two interesting links dealing with managing open source projects which may stimulate further discussions on this topic.

http://producingoss.com/
http://producingoss.com/en/managing-volunteers.html

Regards Christian

[erpe0812]

Hello,

I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for.
Neither me nor one of the guys I am representing are involved in JohnP's fork.
We want (like Chio said) work on wb 2 series from out of this place and try our best, to keep this cms alive and successful.
So I hope, Ryan's offer was that serious as we took it.

Would like to hear from Ryan soon.

rgds

erpe

[doc]

I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for.

Maybe you should check your PMs before posting 

Christian

[cito]

A year ago I wrote in my german blog: WebsiteBaker is a "Bonsai CMS" - it is kept small consciously, for reasons I dont know. If you want a tree, you shall not water a Bonsai, but take the seed and grow a real tree.

Hm, aren't the stated goals of Website baker to be simple and easy to use? I fear if WB grows to be a fully-fledged tree, then simplicity and ease will be lost. For many projects, WB is just the right fit exactly because of its manageable "bonsai" size, other "redwood tree" systems like Drupal or Joomla wood be much too complicated and heavy-weight. So the question is: What kind of tree does the community *want* WB to grow? I fear the controversial opinions are starting already here.

[Stefek]

Hello Cito.

That's a nice point.

My opinion: WebsiteBaker as a system is brilliant. It can be bettered out, but it's quite OK.

The Leadership is trying the best - unfortunatly there has been some frustrations in the coder scene. But it has nothing to do with the community as a whole thing. They have some disagreements. It has nothing to do with "bad" Leadership. It has to do with "Future Goals" and "Purposes".

Since Ryan is no more interested in WB 2 there will be some things changed, but we do not need a new leadership. All we need is some tolerance and patience.

Why? Because this circumstances ARE new. We allways hoped, Ryan will be somehow involved into the communities needs, but now we see, that he is working on another Projects.

So now we know his decision and will very soon come up with a new, better managed structure. I know that there is so many people who will contribute.
We simply love this simplicity which WebsiteBaker represents. And yes - we don't need to fork. And yes, again, Ryan - You did a good job. We're courious abot WB 3.
We will move that ship.

Regards,
Stefek

[erpe0812]

@doc

thanks for this advice.

rgds

erpe

[Ralf Hertsch]

@Stefek

Since Ryan is no more interested in WB 2 there will be some things changed, but we do not need a new leadership. All we need is some tolerance and patience.

That's exactly the problem: the leader is no longer interessted in his project but there is no need for a new leadership...

Don't you think, that there is something wrong with your statement? Wake up!

Regards
Ralf

[BerndJM]

@ Ralf

Maybe there is a different meaning of "leadership".
The point you see : Ryan is the leader
The point stefek and many others (in the german - european? - community see : ruebenwurzel and doc

I agree with you, Ryan isn't longer interestet in the 2.x Version and will the work on the 3.x give his focus.
O.k.
But is there a real need  for a new leadership (as I mentioned above) ?  Did ruebenwurzel and doc made such a bad job?
Had they ever the chance to "lead" without the need to wait for instructions from Ryan?

Just my thoughts
Regards Bernd

P.S.: Mein Englisch ist echt für'n Ar*** um das auszudrücken, was ich genau meine ...

[chio]

Of course I talk about WebsiteBaker as the _whole thing_, not the core. The core is good and stable, and there are just a few things I would really add or make better (the media section? The News-Module?).

What WB needs, is someone who holds things together, avoids double work. It can be a democratic prozess to define the main targets, but one must keep them in mind and arrange duties. And persuade people to accept it.

For example I made a new Template-Search - which was ment to replace the old template search here. Of course - one could talk about improvements, and I know the code isnt the best. I am a designer, not a coder.
But: There were some PMs, then: end. Not interested. Now there is a new Template Search here - and another on my page. Where does this lead to?: I can only step forward and increase my template search - or should I delete it without a trace? Shurely not.

The same will happen with the "All Modules and Snippets Project". And it happend with a lot of good things before. Instead of keeping things together, people are forced to make their own things.
Do I sound frustrated? Yep - that might be. And I am not the only one.

(Many thanks to LEO - the online dictionary

[doc]

Hello,

just a statement to make things clear. I will not take over any leadership position for the WB2 project in the future. I do like coding not leading a community. There are some volunteers out there (e.g. Erpe, John ak pcwacht) so it is up to Ryan to nominate a new project lead in order to give the WB2 project a visible organisation and a new structure.

Leading a community never was and will be my business 

Regards Christian

[Stefek]

This is something, what is a little too misunderstandable.

Why?
Because for the last years you have braught a lot of changes into the WebsiteBaker Project.
I think you have done a good Job.

I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".

And I don't think that you will or want to withdraw from any position you owe.

Yes, we have a lot of volunteers, good people - contributing in the right direction. But I can't imagine WB without "DOC" as a Addons-Leader.
You don't need to move that ship all alone.

Take position and line all the vollunteers up. I think this is the best solution for the whole community and websitebakers future.

Otherwise, if someone has to take over your postion, so it should be someone who can grant the future of WB.
It shouldn't be decided by one man.

Regards,
Stefek

[Ralf Hertsch]

Maybe there is a different meaning of "leadership".
The point you see : Ryan is the leader
The point stefek and many others (in the german - european? - community see : ruebenwurzel and doc

ok - perhaps my sight is too strong.
And your are right: I think too the german/european community will see ruebenwurzel and doc as the leaders.
But:

just a statement to make things clear. I will not take over any leadership position for the WB2 project in the future.

and Ruebenwurzel is still not present (and I asssume: not interesseted in the future of WB 2).

This mean: we have shurely to talk about a team which is willed to continue the development of WB 2 and we will still need a leadership for this team.

I'm highly interested to continue the development of WB 2, there is no other CMS which is so easy to handle and to adapt to the needs of the users. Because I'm not interested in leading anything and my time is too small for endless discussions I will really need a good leadership for this project... 

Regards
Ralf

P.S. @Bernd: ich würd' ach libba Klaaaatexxt spräche... 

[Stefek]

Just to clarify my point of view, Ralf, Bernd.

For long time we moved nowhere, because anyone seemed to be waiting for Ryans hint.
Also the Leaders.

I allways stood behind the Official Leadership and I allways will do.

It has nothing to do because I am living in Germany or Europe. WebsiteBaker should be known WW.

At the other hand, Ralf, I understand that you need good Leading.

I need a good CMS so I am glad if you have the Leadership you need in order to stay productive 

The point is: there is no reason yet for a Fork, and there is no reason to nominate a new leadership.
As Bernd said, nothing was so bad until now.

THIS is a new circumstance. Ryan has allway been here in some kind.
Now it changes. The future of WB depends on us. Users, Developers and yes a good, clarified Definition of the Goals and Purposes of and for the Community.

I know exactly the lags and needs - no question. But did we ever had the chance to change?
Nope.
But we got it now.

And some of the main purposes is: keep it simple, provide help, involve new people, line them up, expand the usage, better up the code where possible.

There is a lot to do for everyone of us. But our behaviour will judge about the result. Not what we do like or think "it has to change", "I know better" or what so ever.

It's up to us all.
Not me, not you, not Matthias, not whosoever. For we are the community and we fought allready to many fights with "Blacksheeps" and "Know-Bests".

We are the Community - We are WebsiteBaker.
And I also know, that there is a lot of able and willing people out there.

And we shouldn't f#&$ck it up. We shouldn't.

Best Regards,
Stefek

[sharmpro]

Hi everybody,
sorry not to be present in this discussion earlier....

My consideration on WB are quite simple and clear and I'd like to share them with all the community.

A nice project is bleeding to death!
As simple as it is!

I might be wrong but the 'boss' so far had pulled WB community's nose around... New WB3 is around the corner and will be..... whatever....
Now we get to know he also had the idea (legitimate one) to produce and mantain a 'commercial' version for his own 'company'!

Well, this is not really the best new for the community!

Do we really need to wait another bone to play with? 

Better wake up!

A 'fresh' and 'new' approach is needed.
Call it 'fork', 'restructure' or 'rework' will not change the result if the all new project will sail the same sea with the same helmsman...
The present way to deal with 'WB' is way too absent!
Anyone is pulling and pushing in order to get something....

I was attracted by the project and it's easiness... but frustrated right away by the inability of WB to turn my efforts into improvements ...

These're reasons why now dev for myself like everybody else out there!

Wish I'd be wrong...

Stefano aka sharmpro