Unofficial WebsiteBaker community & developer meeting

[easyuser]

Hello everybody,

because the last days there was another big displeasure about several things concerning WebsiteBaker, I think the best would be, that there's a direct meeting via Skype.
Please keep in mind: It should be no official meeting, just to exchange opinions about WebsiteBaker.

The language should be English, except all present participants vote for another language (e.g. German).

I don't think waiting too long is good, therefore I created a doodle poll: http://doodle.com/28pxs9pmi89iahvi

If the suggested meeting dates don't fit in your timetable (and you would like to participate), please write it down here.

If you don't like the idea, you don't need to take part - it's that easy!

So, please fill out the doodle poll if you like the idea - it will be closed on Tuesday evening, 21th April 2015.
If there's no preffered date it will be on Thursday, 23rd April at 20:00h CET.

[sky writer]

Hello, I am very interested in the project and optimistic for it's future.  Is this meeting primarily for developers or is anyone welcome?  I would really like to attend, even just to listen in.

[Luisehahne]

Hello, I am very interested in the project and optimistic for it's future.  Is this meeting primarily for developers or is anyone welcome?  I would really like to attend, even just to listen in.

Everyone is welcome

Dietmar

[nibz]

I will be joining (if i can, i added my possibilities).

But i think it's best to already list some of the discuss points so we could maybe stucture the meeting a little bit.

For me some points for the discussion are:

- Modules + Modules repo and possibility to contribute to modules
- Module backend (and maybe frontend) css + discuss the option to make a WB backend framework, so all similar fields in the backend of all modules will look and behave the same (and then all module dev's don't have to reinvent the wheel).
- (Frontend) Templates
- Tutorials for users (i think the docu can be better and am willing to help!)
- Download area; i would like to have 1 button where i can download the most recent version of WebsiteBaker including fixes (excluding nightlybuilds, these will be need to be tested en eventuely put in a minor or major version).

And most important:
- the Core  and working the possibility to work together (in teams), maybe opensourcing the development.

Everyone in the meeting can say if they do or don't like the idea's that will be discussed and if many people like a idea and are willing to make the idea happen we this will mean a major thing for WebsiteBaker and it's future.

The foundation of WebsiteBaker is good; but we could put a new roof on the house  .

[Boudi]

So thursday 20.00 it is? (Berlin/Amsterdam time)

Do we need all Skype accounts in order to talk/write to each other?

[easyuser]

Hello,

for now we have 4 dates with 7 participants.
So the meeting will start on Thursday, 23.April (in two days) 20:00 Berlin / Amsterdam time.
I hope there's no problem with summertime / wintertime   - for international community member:
8pm / 20.00h UTC +2 hours.
Nibz can of course participate later.

If somebody want's to take part that has not voted in Doodle - of course anybody that want's to take part at a constructive discussion / meeting about WebsiteBaker can take part.

We'll use Skype for the meeting, because most people I know from WB are "skyping".
Please contact "luisehahne" or "michael.tenschert" for the meeting.

If there are any questions or suggestions regarding the meeting - please add them here. Thanks!

[Boudi]

Forgive me, I hope I can make it at 20.00 utc +2. Trying between 20.00 and 20.30. (wife-working-kids)

Most important during our conference call is to respect and listen to each other opinions/minds. (otherwise I'm gone)

We all share our personal minds and ideas during this meeting. All good but the main goal is wb.

Like Nibz already mentioned to avoid a mess an agenda is needed.

For me I would like some talk about the following (as a non-coder)

- is a wb core upgrade really needed? (I'm not a coder, for me wb still does the job perfect)
- upgrade the standard wb install (get rid of old templates/fckeditor and all stuff we don't need)
- use of the new wb admin as a standard admin
- much better mod development. Personally for me this is the most important issue. Users walk away because of this.
- Avoid proliferation of alternative wb sites/core developments. Let's keep the whole wb development tight (though Github is not bad I guess)
- Forum upgrade! Since 1830 we're watching the same forum. Not good. In the last months I already did some testing on new platforms but merging the smf-db into other platforms is almost impossible. What's left is upgrade our SMF to the latest version and put a new, responsive template on it. So (new) users can see finally action in WB world.

So in short for me an agenda would be something like this:

- status new wb
- clean up wb
- Mod development
- current forum
- github

Kind regards,

Boudi

[easyuser]

Hello,

after asking Luisehahne we will start 20.30 utc +2 not 20.00, so 1/2 hour later.
I hope it fits better for nibz and Boudi.

I'll prepare an agenda for this evening.

[Stefek]

If there are any questions or suggestions regarding the meeting - please add them here. Thanks!

Hello Michael, hello everybody.

Here are some suggestions from me what should be considered if WebsiteBaker is to come to a higher level.

First of all: let it be a community project again.

For 3+ years, NO NEW WebsiteBaker RELEASE has seen the light of day.
Only one person is developing the code, entirely ignoring community efforts, good intentions and solutions.

The Repository is not moving forward, no one can really see what is currently being done and where it is going.

Nobody really knows when the next version will be released.

My Quick-Fix suggestion is as follows:
Set a release date (i.e. 1st of June) and make it FIX (don't change it anymore).
At this date, a BETA Version of 2.8.4. should be released to the community (as it used to be before DarkViper took over the development).
Announce a feature freeze.
Correct the bugs the community reports.
Continue with RCs (with a feature freeze) until all bugs are handled.
Release the final version.
Hand over the 2.8.x Development to Luisehane (or whoever is able and willing to lead the cause) and the community.

DarkViper shall then work on her development separately. As it was planned some time ago (Dietmar and Michael and some other people may remember).

The community can then work on the 2.8.x and develop and implement new features. The community and the system make progress again.
And if (and when) DarkViper's ideas are realized (all that she is trying to implement for way too long now), the community can merge their ideas with DarkViper's branch.

As long as this procrastination is being practised as it currently is being done by DarkViper, only more shrinkage of potential in community will be the result.

It's going on for too long already.

And, as one of the community members said:

And don't forget: "Together Everyone Achieves More".

Thank you for consideration,
Stefek

P.S. It is not to say that I have no respect for DarkVipers work. I do. I did even learn few things. But it is one thing to have the skills and a different thing is to actually deliver. After 3 years at least a in-between-version should have been delivered. And as I have spoken to some guys latly, they see it exactly as I do.

[nibz]

I will be attending.

Rescheduled my agenda + the 30 minutes switch later was welcome.

See you tonight

[sky writer]

I can no longer make it.  All the best to those participating.

[easyuser]

Hello everybody,

here is the agenda:

1) Opening and introduction of participants; Everybody gives a small statement about the personal view of the current situation of WebsiteBaker - Why Do you like WebsiteBaker? What Do you except of the meeting? No discussion.

2) Addons and mod development
2.1) Modules + Modules repo and possibility to contribute to modules
2.2) Module backend / frontend css
2.3) Frontend Templates  
2.4) Backend Template;Modernize and upgrade to twig / bootstrap?
2.5) Module development: Ideas and suggestions
2.6) Suggestions / Open discussion about addons

3) WebsiteBaker core
3.1) WB core upgrade - What are the goals, when there's a 2.8.4, what are the benefits?
3.2) WB backend framework: How to use fields and functions of WB core in modules?
3.3) Suggestions / Open discussion about WB core

4) The project WebsiteBaker
4.1) Tutorials and help section of wb.org
4.2) Modern touch of wb.org - e.g. new download area, new page structure?
4.3) Forum upgrade / migration
4.4) WebsiteBaker - Community project or Development team controlled or Association (Verein, e.V.) controlled?
4.5) Building teams / working at the project; Crazy idea: Splitting WB core development in two teams for 2.8.x and 2.9.x?
4.6) Working at github? New repository for WB development?
4.7) What are the goals of WebsiteBaker project?
4.8 ) Suggestions / Open discussion about WB project

5.) Other matters

6.) Next meeting, Conclusion of the meeting, perhaps summary of to-dos; Saying Goodbye


We'll start in 15 minutes.

Just to clear: It is a meeting and "fair" discussion, no accusation or flaming.

[hgs]

Hello in the Skype round.

Is there a record of results, if possible in German and English
I would feel as pleased to present a "Just WB user"

Sorry for the Googel Translation

[Boudi]

Hello HGS,

It was a constructive first meeting which lasted over 3 hours. You will read a report soon here on the forum. Most important that we all agreed on to focus on the mods and what comes with it. Besides that our developers now know that the next WB version will come out soon, very soon.

[hgs]

Das hört sich doch gut an

GoggleTranslate:
That sounds good 

[Tez Oner]

Eey,

it was nice and good to have a meeting like this and the German / English went well right

Cheerz,

Tez Oner

[crnogorac081]

thumbs up ! These are good news !

I am inpatient to read the report.

I would also add a feature to remove phisical php pages as it is deprecated in current modern development. I already have some medium size projects with 0 access pages in FE.

[Martin Hecht]

Hi,

I agree, it was a nice and constructive discussion. I maintain/contribute to a few modules and use some which have not received an update for a long time.

Once the direction is clear, I'm willing to contribute to the effort to modernize the modules. The "direction" may be defined by guidelines (e.g. no tables in the frontend ) and maybe one or some templates which can be used as a starting point. But I don't want to anticipate to the process for which the meeting of yesterday was just the kickoff.

[Stefek]

thumbs up ! These are good news !
I am inpatient to read the report.

Yes, agree. Would also like to see some kind of report.

But I don't want to anticipate to the process for which the meeting of yesterday was just the kickoff.

It's not easy for me to follow you (maybe because I didn't take part in the meeting). Would you elaborate on that a little bit, Martin?

4.5) Building teams / working at the project; Crazy idea: Splitting WB core development in two teams for 2.8.x and  and 2.9.x?

Yes Michael, this sounds radical, but when nothing happens again, what should be the consequences? After all this is a community project. Isn't it?
In a nutshell, what crazy means is: "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result" (Albert Einstein).  


It was nice to see how many people took part in the meeting. Carry on.
I'll be back with a new module once the 2.8.4. is released to the public (hopefully soon).

Kind regards,
Stefek

[Martin Hecht]

Hi Stefek,

But I don't want to anticipate to the process for which the meeting of yesterday was just the kickoff.

It's not easy for me to follow you (maybe because I didn't take part in the meeting). Would you elaborate on that a little bit, Martin?

I'm referring to item 2 on the agenda. I didn't take notes during the meeting, so I can just write a summary what I remember (I believe someone took some notes and wanted to distribute them).

So, just to elaborate on this point: We agreed that there are many modules, some of them are unfortunately not maintained any more. Ruud manages the Add-ons repository and he uploads modules which are tested. Some others got stuck during the development and were never finished and/or are written in an old style with hard-coded css formatting or tables which cause trouble with modern div-based templates. The Core Development team has not the time to put much effort into maintaining/modernizing modules nor for coordinating this work.

However, for web designers the templates and modules are as important as the core itself, so we agreed that there should also be a modules development team. (actually, the idea is not new. I believe Manuela has announced such a plan mentioning you as one of the coordinators already some time ago). Another task which came up for the module development was that there should some kind of API or functions which the modules can call, some set of default variables and some kind of guidelines how modules should be written so that it fits well together with any template. Once, there is such an API, or however you would call it, we can take old modules and simplify them. One example is that many modules come with their own upload mechanism - and if there was a framework which provides ready-to use dialogs for such standard tasks, one can replace the module's own mechanism by this framework, which is then maintained (e.g. receives security patches in a central place).

All in all, there are a lot of ideas and there is a lot of work - enough for two teams: one for developing an API and another team which looks for modules, updates and maintains them (probably not all of them if there are many different modules for the same task e.g. many image galleries...). And after talking quite a long time about modules, templates and other ideas, we decided that the next Skype call should be dedicated to the module development and we should proceed in the agenda.

Martin

Disclaimer: I didn't take notes during the call... so forgive me if I remember something not correctly.

[Stefek]

Hello Martin,

thanks for the extensive reply.

However, for web designers the templates and modules are as important as the core itself, so we agreed that there should also be a modules development team. (actually, the idea is not new. I believe Manuela has announced such a plan mentioning you as one of the coordinators already some time ago).

I don't remember being announced as coordinator for module development or a team dedicated to such a task. And I never anticipated such a role for myself.
I am interested in building my own modules and have done so in the past with several developers but stopped development until the 2.8.4. will be finished and released.

Another task which came up for the module development was that there should some kind of API or functions which the modules can call, some set of default variables and some kind of guidelines how modules should be written so that it fits well together with any template.
Once, there is such an API, or however you would call it, we can take old modules and simplify them.

I see.
That's a good idea for sure.
It's not an easy task to create a "one size fits all" semantik for the frontend layouts of modules (so the layout output of modules fits in all templates), but it should be possible to make it better as it is now. And moving away from the table structure in modules like News or Form (and in this way providing an example for community developped modules) is a good idea.

One example is that many modules come with their own upload mechanism - and if there was a framework which provides ready-to use dialogs for such standard tasks, one can replace the module's own mechanism by this framework, which is then maintained (e.g. receives security patches in a central place).

Understand, however, mechanisms like this should be part of the core.
The core has a (ACP-) Module "Media" which needs a handler for data (images and txt files at least) upload.
Creating a clean upload handler that can also be used in modules should be considered as core- component. (And of course, the community should contribute to the core - as one person alone won't make it all by herself.)

Another example is the inclusion from the edit-area (or code-mirror or such). Some Community Developped Modules need it and the core should provide it- as it may need it for example for the upcoming, Twig based, Search Loop Template (in Frontend).

Yet another example may be the upload of zipped folders. The core needs it, and, if well adjusted, the same class could be used for core-needs and module-needs as well.
(Just like the access pages class is used in core and can be used in modules as well.)

So I wonder why a module-based-api is being approached, instead of creating a team which works on solutions that can be used in core AND modules as well.

As for the building of a team which updates existing Addons: great. That's allways welcome.

As far as I know, Ruud has a list of modules that should be updated. I even updated one or two but have seen that such a task really makes sense at leeast after the release of 2.8.4. (inclusion of Twig) and even better, after a rework of the ACP (Admin Control Panel / Backend). The latter because in the course of reworking the ACP a whole new Backend-Style-Guide can be defined, and thus creating the base for uniformity of modules (look and feel) independently of what "Backend-Theme" is installed.
(If you have any questions in this regard, drop me some lines.)

This is not to say that reworking modules should be suspended until a point in the future. I am only pointing out that what can be done now can only be a phase one of the entire process of modernization.
But for sure, with the release of the 2.8.4. many things in the modules may be reworked (and because you can coordinate with the core-developer, the work can be started immediately).
Scanning through the modules and deciding what is really needed and doable in phase one is a reasonable starting point.

Kind regards,
Stefek

[Martin Hecht]

Hello Stefek,

thank you for your input

I don't remember being announced as coordinator for module development or a team dedicated to such a task.

maybe I didn't understand the details of the different tasks, but here (at the end of the post) Manuela mentioned you as the leader for introducing TWIG and first modules that use it:
http://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,27237.msg187742.html#msg187742

I [...] have seen that such a task really makes sense at least after the release of 2.8.4. (inclusion of Twig) and even better, after a rework of the ACP (Admin Control Panel / Backend).

the release of 2.8.4 was another important topic in the meeting and as already posted by others here, it will become ready soon.

kind regards, Martin

[Stefek]

I don't remember being announced as coordinator for module development or a team dedicated to such a task.

maybe I didn't understand the details of the different tasks, but here (at the end of the post) Manuela mentioned you as the leader for introducing TWIG and first modules that use it:
http://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,27237.msg187742.html#msg187742

OK, that has nothing to do with modules per se but with the development of the ACP - which consists of modules all right, but has nothing to do with the leading a team of community contributed modules.

Details have never been set in stone. And as you see, this was written almost a year ago. By now I have managed to rewite the necessary php-code that handles the "backend theme" output by 70-80%. The code may be not perfect, but it could provide the needed prototype and save us another year of "no progress".

As I mentioned before, WB should rethink its development radically.

BTW. Has a date been fixed for the release of WebsiteBaker 2.8.4.?

Kind regards,
Stefek

[Boudi]

BTW. Has a date been fixed for the release of WebsiteBaker 2.8.4.?

Hi Stefek,

The 'deadline' is 1 aug 2015. Darkviper and Luisehahe think they need approx 2-3 more months to get 2.84 ready.

Most points about the first meeting are already put down here. Another point that was not mentioned till now was this forum. It's highly outdated and needs to be upgraded. Michael and I already did several tests about merging the entire forum into another open source script. But in the end there were 2 solutions; upgrade the current forum with the latest SMF version and/or start an entire new forum from 2.84 and make this forum available as an archive.

Regards,

Boudi

 

[Stefek]

Hello Boudi,

thank you.

As for the Forum, man, at least change the grey color to something more uplifting. That would sure make a difference.  

ElkArte is a Fork of SMF and it provides a migration tool for SMF. This software looks OK after a quick inspection, but I didn't test it extensivly.

Kind regards,
Stefek