Forum

[laetta]

Hi@all

I am not allowed to answer announcements on the forum therefore I open this thread, but I don't want to start a discussion.

I know I have only less posts and I am not that long member in this community, but at this point I would like to share my thoughts to this thread:
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19203.0.html

First of all: thumbs up Klaus!
Again one active member lost and 2 other active members more or less not appearing in the forum anymore.
Keep on your work until the last active member left WB.
Maybe it is a good idea if you answer Argos' question in this thread (for all members).
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19203.0.html

btw: this is nearly a senseless post from my point of view:
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19234.0.html
Not the board banned the members but you, so you should have published this.
But to whom the apology is adressed? I don't really know, but if the board wants to apologize it should have been no problem to name the adressee (even for the banned members are named in the referred thread).

And referring to that thread users are banned for I am sure there had been several other solutions to stop writing there (simply close the thread?).
But what is noticable: Argos and berndjm are moderators in the german board (as it is written in the overview). So why do you feel yourself empowered to get involved like a "big brother"?
Particularly cause Argos did not seemed involved as I read from his post (and isn't he the forum team leader?).
I think penalties should only be done by the team leader. Even in football decisions are not made by the referee-assistants.
And is banning a good penalty? In this case you prevented 3 active members from giving help in the forum, so hasn't this penalty gone to the community?
Ok, those things had happened and could not be removed. But you can learn from them for the future and I hope for the community you'll do.

The last time mostly in the german board questions, answers and critics are often commtented very hard by official team members.
Therefore the sentence

WebsiteBaker believes in the right of "Freedom of speech"

seems incomplete to me.
It feels more like

WebsiteBaker believes in the right of "Freedom of speech" as long as you have the same point of view as the officials. If not you will be ignored or not taken serious.

You should keep in mind that users don't have to be member of your association to make up their mind about WB and to post some ideas.
I think there are several "normal" users who contributed some good ideas, modules and snippets in the last months that are worth not to be ignored.

I know this is a hard comment bu this is how I feel about the forum (specially in the german board) at this time.

laetta
who hopefully will not be banned for this post

[BlackBird]

Took a screenshot.

[crnogorac081]

I would like that someone please explain me what happened behind the scene from independent point of view, and why some good people left wb.. here or on PM..

[laetta]

yes, this could be really interesting but I doubt if there is one independent who knows all things behind the scene.

On the other hand what happened happened. Isn't it more important that similar things will not happen again?
And when some water flowed down the river maybe some will find the way "back home" .
Or will be asked to return if the relevant people had talked together.

laetta

[Luisehahne]

My point of view is, to look in the future and not what happened in the past. Everybody is willing to learn.

It's more important to fix some modules to run with the next WB versions. Every module developer can get help from the development team, if he has problems with the recoded backend.

Dietmar

[laetta]

@Dietmar

Everybody is willing to learn.

It doesn't seem so as you prove right now:

It's more important to fix some modules...

defintely not.
It is exactly what I meant with "ignoring".
Instead of answering the questions from Argos or explaining/modifying your post here
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19234.0.html
you are going to talk about modules, and this has nothing to do with this thread.

Seems that it makes no sense to post here again for obviously you did not want to understand what the intention of my post was.

laetta

[crnogorac081]

According to this post: https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19234.0.html , the Board stated to respect other members.

I would like to be respected, and to get answer to my question..(let the Board step up, and make an example how they respect community members..)

I dont want to have a fight with anyone here, just want to know the heck happened...

ivan

[pcwacht]

Didn't spoke yet about this and simular matters, cause I didn't know what constructive to ask, say or contribute
but I was somewhat worried.

By now I am more then somewhat worried and I regret that, but still haven't something to contribute.

I sincerely hope in time I'll be proven wrong to be worrying.


John

[Ruud]

@laetta,
(As a board member) I respect your opinion. And I am glad to see there still are people that really seem to worry about this community.
Please respect the fact that we cannot explain every detail that is discussed in board meetings as well.
On issues like these there has happened much more than what you read on the forum. There are many PM's and private emails invloved too, and it would be unforgivable if we would discuss those either publicly in the forum, or even in personal communications.

One line in your message is especially worrying to me.

You should keep in mind that users don't have to be member of your association to make up their mind about WB and to post some ideas.

Please keep in mind that the association is nothing more than "your" community. The community members have elected us to represent the them and try to prevent WB from the certain death it was heading to.
In the end.. without you, there would be no association, without the association there would be no WB anymore.

@ivan
Of course we respect you and your contribution to the community.
But it will not help you or any of us if a discussion about personal differences would be held publicly with the world as an audience.
Explaining in detail about any issue with another member would be disrespectful against all other members. I really hope you can understand and appreciate this.

@all
Please remember the board is elected by the community to help the community in making WebsiteBaker better. Not to be referees in personal fights or vendetta's. We are not professional "people-managers", we are just people like yourselves who try to keep the WB project alive to the best of their abilities.
If you feel we are not doing a good job, spend some of your personal time and get yourself involved in the project. Maybe on the next elections you could be one of the responsible board members.

As a personal note:
Currently, less than 10 people are spending most of their free time and for some even lots of money to keep this project alive. I hope you can agree that they deserve a little respect and room for errors too.
Demands and accusations like expressed in this tread do not help us in staying motivated to do the job you asked us to do.

Ruud

[laetta]

@Ruud
first of all thank you for commenting my post.
But some things are obviously misunderstandings or wrong.
I never asked for details of board meetings but details to whom your apologize is adressed and some clarification (Argos asked for too) what exact happened that users had been banned ( so other users can avoid banning).

Please keep in mind that the association is nothing more than "your" community. The community members have elected us to represent the them and try to prevent WB from the certain death it was heading to.

This is wrong. I (for example) was not asked to elect anyone and as I can read from the association's statute only association members are allowed to elect. And you should know that. I am sure that only less community members are part of the association. This is the reason why I stated

You should keep in mind that users don't have to be member of your association to make up their mind about WB and to post some ideas.

But maybe this is the problem at all:
I don't think that community/forum members feel being part of the association. And as you can read on the forum the informations given from the association referring to their work and the future of this project were seen as very poor.
Therefore it seems that 2 groups had growed: the association and the community. And most community members obviously don't want to be part of the association for several different reasons. In my case because I don't want to spent too much time in front of the PC and rather spent my free time with my family (and some hobbies). So I appreciate what all (community members and association menbers) are doing for this project.
But the less informations (some may call it ignoring) coming from the board seem to be a problem for the community. Maybe this is the reason why community members are not willing to be involved in the association? I don't really know, but I hope this thread will help to change things ( see it as my contribution).

Please remember the board ... to help the community in making WebsiteBaker better

But in fact the association acts like a closed shop. There are many posts ( most in the active german forum)  that especially critisize the acting as "super teacher" and prevent people from contributing what ever (ideas, views, modules,snippets).
Maybe my post helps to think things over and change "information policy".

And at last refferring to your personal notes:
Only ask for respect for association mebers if you are willing to respect others that spent a lot of time in contributions for the project being not members of the association (and 2 of the 3 were not member at that time, in the meantime the third had left the association too as he stated on the forum, so don't wonder if you are less than 10?).
It is no problem if people make errors as long as they stick to them, say that things went wrong and apologize for the "wrong acting". And learn for the future.
But not writing "mystic" unclear posts and don't apologize to the one(s) who had been treated falsely without naming them.

If Klaus (or the association board) would have done this thread had never been opened.

laetta
who will now keep quiet and calm again

[crnogorac081]

@ivan
Of course we respect you and your contribution to the community.
But it will not help you or any of us ..

Yes it will, that is the whole point.. This looks like a big pushing things under the carpet. There are serious circumstances unrevealed that happened behind the scene. I find it very concerning that few of the leaders of WB e.V. got banned ? And now some of them left?? If you find this "normal", than I am not normal at all.. Then,  how can leaders be banned from forum? What did they do? Swear eachothers mother ? And again a blank apologize to all/some of them and a lot of unfinished story about the reasons that came to that action..

I am really trying to understand what happened here and why the leadership is split..

ivan
 

[BlackBird]

I'd like to thank "laetta" for his/her statement. I think (s)he has brought some things that go wrong at the moment to the point.

@Ivan: I can only speak for myself. I was banned for repeated criticism, which was seen as personal attacks. I am not going to comment this any further. I know it must be hard to understand for those who don't speak German, but that's all I can say about this.

"laetta" found the right words for most of the things that trouble me, too. The most important thing I have to criticise is the lack of respect that is shown by some members of the backend team. Of course, this will lead to a lack of respect _for_ the backend team. I was attacked in the official forum by the team leader and other team members when I was in the backend team, which was the reason for me to leave.

I really appreciate the statements that we all should try to find back to a regardful and kind dealing. It is not my intend to have personal wars or to push WB over the cliff to it's death. Quite the converse. Most of us are keen people, und where passion is involved, the things sometimes escalate. I hope that all the people involved have the will to make it better from now on.

[pcwacht]

The most important thing I have to criticise is the lack of respect that is shown by some members of the backend team. Of course, this will lead to a lack of respect _for_ the backend team. I was attacked in the official forum by the team leader and other team members when I was in the backend team, which was the reason for me to leave.

is wat worries me the most, seems to me the smartests are leaving. Some allso leaving WB in whole.

If from a group the most smartests are leaving what will be in the group?

Enfin, enough said.

[aldus]

- Qui tacet, consentire videtur -

I've placed it centered - as you can //see// this in two ways at all; the silence of the community (i'm not asking about »what the community is« or how it could be defined in any way - as i'm a not a sociologist) and the silence of the board [-members{0,1}] to these questions at all.

Even the <<silence>> of the »community« isn't a <<yes>>/ nor a <<no>> at a all - even the silence of the board should not be a <<yes>>!

Kind regards
Aldus

[edit]Reason: typos, typos, typos ... [/edit]

[crnogorac081]

@aldus
Mate, I didnt understood your saying..

What I want is to pass over the silence and open discussion. If someone made a mistake..*hit happens, we are all humans.. If there were some critics, they are ment to go in positive way. For the past years I am here, I am not part of any group/board/team so I am speaking as a part of FORUM community and I dont want to take sides or defend anyone.

For the good of the project, I think that some people need to say "Im sorry" , and to politely invite people who left to come back.. I think that is the best for the WB, of course if there is still a space for that..

I also have heard wit a person who left, and in respect to him and some other people I will not say a single word any more on this subject... now I leave it to all of you leaders to reconsider your actions and possible consequences..

I would not like to see WB going down and down..

Ivan

[laetta]

Hi Board

these are sad days for WebsiteBaker.
I hoped you felt that community members are curious about your (not given) answers the open questions.
Do you really think you can wait things out?
I don't think so.
And the way you are dealing with this situation won't give you the respect you have been asking for.
The reverse is all you will get.

From my point of view you all disqualified as leaders of the project in this crisis situation that btw one of you had caused and could be prevented in an easy way even after it had happened.
But you decided to keep silent and hoped that things will be smooth again and you can go further on in the same way?
In this case you prove that you didn't even recognize that you (or one of you) made a mistake and you hoped with an anonymous apology things are done.
If yes please take the same consequences as you have to do on the political scene.
Do you really think this will motivate other community members to join the association and be an active member supporting this project?

Please think this over.

If you really feel the board should represent the forum/community maybe it's a good idea to let the forum nominate some candidates and let then elect the board by the association members.
This assures that board members really represent the community's wish.

WebsiteBaker will only have a future if all (less) power is bundeled (we all know this and it is stated in many threads on the forum).
I think there is no space for bad conflicts but the urgent need of factual argumentation and discussion (though I know there are conflicts where people want and have to work together).
But one job of board or team members is to moderate conflicts if they cannot be prevented.
And there are some successful proves, see developing of foldergallery.

And referring to the critics on the forum:
Maybe you should open a board where everyone (even anonymous) can write whatever s/he wants (like speaker's corner in Hyde Park) without fearing to be banned?
Or open something like a anonymous "complaining" board that assures, that every post there will be officially answered?
Or some other way where people will get answers to questions referring to WebsiteBaker (that are not support questions or similar)
If something like this exists it will prevent people from misuse support threads and moderators can advise users to post on this "complain mail box" in case they misuse support threads.
There would be (almost) no need to ban users and I am sure there will be many positive initials that can be squeezed out of factual critics.
During my time using (mostly reading) this forum I saw no one who didn't meant critics positive for the project though it sometimes was seen negative (unfortunately it depends on personal preferences of team members).

And now throw me in the "bad guys corner" and put me on the "black sheep" list.
But this is my personal point of view.

laetta
who won't get nominated board member 

[i2Paq]

I don't know what happened as I cannot find the topic you all are revering to but one thing I noticed every-time I pay a visit to this forum:

Less people visit here and also activity have slowed down.
I'm sat to see a great project like this coming to this point.

[BlackBird]

It's in the german part of the forum, and it's a bit - uhm - chunked now.

[laetta]

@i2Paq
the thread that was referred to is this one:
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,19207.0.html
but I am not shure if parts of it had been deleted.

I'm not wondering that there is only less activity, do you?
Good to see that Blackbird is back again and real active.
One other had definetely left the community and the third seems to be not part of the forum any longer.

But the ones who caused this prefer to keep silent.   

laetta

[BlackBird]

I hardly thought about leaving, but I hate to let "them" win, so I stay here. (Though I have some problems using this forum now because of locked IPs, but that won't keep me out. It's the century of Anonymizing Proxies, isn't it?)

[kweitzel]

I hardly thought about leaving, but I hate to let "them" win, so I stay here.

It is this kind of thinking which destroys the community ... together with your behaviour towards the community. You are claiming to work for the community, so work TOGETHER with everybody.

(Though I have some problems using this forum now because of locked IPs, but that won't keep me out. It's the century of Anonymizing Proxies, isn't it?)

And like said in about 10 private messages, over the course of 2 days and several hours of troubleshooting: The IP adresses you where able to provide are not banned. And I will not remove ALL IP based bans (approx. 1100) because of your inability to provide the required Informtation. All bans put in place by me against you are lifted.

For me the whole issue is closed unless you provide more and useful information.

cheers

Klaus

[BlackBird]

I cannot help you if you don't remember what you've done to keep me out. It's funny enough that you locked my IPs, but didn't for the others that were banned. So don't speak of working together.

It's simply a fact that you have banned a complete buisiness company with over 1200 work places. Nothing to say more about this. I don't know what you've done. If you don't know either... *shrug*

[kweitzel]

Like I said, I did remove what I put in place. And that is it.

cheers

Klaus

[BlackBird]

Like I said, forum access is still not possible from any workplace here. Also for guest. This cannot be a Proxy or Cache issue. But, however, it's not a big problem for _me_. You just keep out other people that may are (were) interested in WB.

[kweitzel]

Like I said, I did remove what I put in place. And that is it.