Author Topic: Discussion about English only forum  (Read 7077 times)

Offline Boudi

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Discussion about English only forum
« on: April 16, 2015, 04:28:50 PM »
Too bad you (both) are leaving too. I have plans for WB but need experienced users between the newbies.

Quote
Many developing discussions take place only in the German forums, and in my opinion that is one of the reasons of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB...

Totally agree with you. Let's hope that the (only) German speaking/writing users are starting to realize when this exodus keeps continuing there's no WB left soon.

WB simply needs developers in order to create and mantain mods. Without that WB will die. And that's a shame because I've tested a LOT of cms but always went back to wb. So there's a reason for that. :)

« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 04:09:30 PM by Luisehahne »
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Offline jacobi22

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 05:20:59 PM »
Quote
Many developing discussions take place only in the German forums, and in my opinion that is one of the reasons of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB...

Totally agree with you.

i'm not agree with this, my english is not good enough for english discussions about technical questions. The most here active USERS are german speakers and i'm not a deveploper i was a simple and little supporter. Sometimes my bad english was good enough to help the english speakers, but if i translate the words from argos word by word - i am one of the reason of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB - why i talk in my native language  :roll:
i'm sure, that Argos means nothing like this, but it is the result of this words - german speakers are not welcome here (in the future)
That the forum goes more and more to a english-speaker-only-area is one of the points, why i leave WB, its time to make place for the new and modern people
Probleme sind da, um sie zu lösen, nicht, um nach Ausreden zu suchen.

Offline Argos

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 05:33:41 PM »
Jacobi, you turn things completely around. WB has been an English system from the start (it was a project of Ryan, an Australian guy). Only after many years a german subforum was started, for German users to discuss the USE of WB. After that at some point WB as a project was taken over by a German "Verein", but as far as I know it has never been the goal to discuss development in the German forums only.

WB is an international platform, and the common international language for web related stuf is English. Even if your English is not good, it's almost never a problem to understand each other.

The German-only development of WB is not a good thing, and I have stated that before. It limits the collaboration of the international community. That's why I think it is one of the reasons WB is going downhill.

All nationalities are welcome, I never said and never will say that Germans are not welcome here. That's total crap, and I don't understand you suggest I mean something like that. But Germans should discuss development things in the English forum, as far as I am concerned.

And now, let's keep this discussion about the real subject: the adoption of the ProCalendar module.
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Offline jacobi22

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 05:42:59 PM »
I never said and never will say that Germans are not welcome here. That's total crap, and I don't understand you suggest I mean something like that.

i'm sure, that Argos means nothing like this
Probleme sind da, um sie zu lösen, nicht, um nach Ausreden zu suchen.

Offline Yetiie

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 05:47:30 PM »
[just OT and a maybe not bad information]


Yesterday we in the german forum wie had a hard discussion about bootstrap ... doesn't matter in detail here.

The anger about the situation between the active german users is great and it was not easy at all to calm things down asside from the topic of the thread.

But there was an positive anouncement of the organisation team. There will be an official meeting soon where the election to the Board Members of the organisation will happen and they will think about the situation and work on an concept for the future.

For some users of the german thread this has been a positive information and gave them hope for some time ... we will see. And for myself I don not(!) believe the team does not recognize the real situation ... the signs are to clear not to realize the truth ... but it is allways hard to admit that the former way is not a good one and that the own way has not been successful.

Maybe we should give them a chance for reorganizing :-)
And help ... even international(!) help ... is welcome too I believe.

My hubble opinion: Developers are indeed needed ... but helpers to develop the plattform (including internet page and presentation i.e.) are needed too (maybe more) at the moment.

[/ OT]

Offline Tez Oner

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 07:16:16 PM »
Eey,

some things as I see it, I guess there's a lot of WB developers (mostly not programmers)
who would love to contribute to WB - But (and that one of hella butt) to get 'involved'
in for example the development of WB is unclear, there's no 'public' Github' to commit,
communication with main developers (which I guess are at the moment from Germany)
doesn't not always goes well (read don't even get a reply), and that's from own experience.
Also the progress / milestones / plans are not clearly communicated (which are important to
addons / template developers!).

With all respect this are some fundamental issues that cause WB not to 'breakthrough'
and keep up with features from other CMS's, that a 'newby' would expect from a CMS.
Also the fact that 'commercial' addons or templates seem not to have that 'support' from
the forum, tho when you look at bigger picture these paid additions (mostly give software a
more brought functionality).

There's a lot of talents in the WB community but only to push is not the way, WB should
also 'pull' and keep up the dialog.

And if you want to make it 'international' start with 1 forum in English, it's 2015 right ;)

(hehehe just reading it's maybe kinda off-topic - but relevant).


Cheerz,

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Offline jacobi22

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2015, 08:20:18 PM »
Quote
And if you want to make it 'international' start with 1 forum in English, it's 2015 right ;)

Yeah, thats, what i mean - germans are not longer welcome here
kick all the german speakers and close the german forum areas - and maybe the last 3 english speakers save the (WB-)world

good luck

Question: why not russian? if putin comes, you have to learn it  :roll:
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Offline Luisehahne

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2015, 09:00:08 PM »
I think, we all together will be going to find a solution. My English too is very bad, we are some old guys and have problemes with other languages as German. It's not so easy for us.

I agree with all your statements, it's very difficult to satisfied all users German and English.

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Offline Tez Oner

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2015, 09:13:32 PM »
Quote
kick all the german speakers and close the german forum areas - and maybe the last 3 english speakers save the (WB-)world

I didn't say 'German'  :roll: but to make it more clear; English is
(besides a coding language or you code in german heheheheh
Code: [Select]
alst(diese und diese == iets){ dan noch-iets; } I know
germans (with all respect, just like French like their language) but
then be consistent, there also a lot of eastern EU so why not a forum
in Romanian, Polish, Russian (Jacobi's fav), Armanian, Czech, Slovak
etc.

When having one forum in (e.q. one language) the info is more accessible
for everyone (who speak English, doesn't have to do with a nationality.)

Cheerz,

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Offline Stefek

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 10:16:15 PM »
Haha,

I am from Poland and live in Poland. What's the problem. Just learn german and all will be good.

 :-D

No, I am kidding here. But actually it's more likely that you learn german than the Germans start writing english.

 :-P
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Offline Stefek

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 10:20:15 PM »

Question: why not russian? if putin comes, you have to learn it  :roll:


What's wrong with russian? Liked to learn russian. Funny letters. Sounds even better than german. Particularly when they curse.  :-D
"Gemeinsam schafft man mehr."

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Offline jacobi22

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 11:37:11 PM »
What's wrong with russian?
Nothing!
my russian was good enough for the uni in moscow and for the translation with the russian army in the gdr, but i dont use it in the last 20 years   :-(
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Offline justy

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 11:45:00 PM »
I don't think that one english forum solves the problem to satisfy all users and also do not think that this is an royal road. This would penalize "old members" that don't speak English so well.

I think it is depending on several factors like defined targets of future way from WB(and other factors) that potentially interested users should know. This would make the decision much more easier for new potential interested people to take WB as their favorite CMS or take over from another CMS. I also think if this future way is more visible for new interested people, WB will begin to grow(more) and (maybe)more supporters for english language will come in the future to WB.

I also believe that would be found a good solution for the future.
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Offline Stefek

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2015, 12:09:08 AM »
What's wrong with russian?
Nothing!
my russian was good enough for the uni in moscow and for the translation with the russian army in the gdr, but i dont use it in the last 20 years   :-(

Yes, the russians are good engineers, too. That's correct.

I wasn't speaking russian for almost 20 years myself. But somehow the events of last year promted me to relearn bits of it.  :wink:
"Gemeinsam schafft man mehr."

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Offline Stefek

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2015, 12:11:30 AM »
I don't think that one english forum solves the problem to satisfy all users and also do not think that this is an royal road. This would penalize "old members" that don't speak English so well.

I think it is depending on several factors like defined targets of future way from WB(and other factors) that potentially interested users should know. This would make the decision much more easier for new potential interested people to take WB as their favorite CMS or take over from another CMS. I also think if this future way is more visible for new interested people, WB will begin to grow(more) and (maybe)more supporters for english language will come in the future to WB.

I also believe that would be found a good solution for the future.

Agreed.

What lacks is basicly a holistic vision. And contemporary should it be.
WebsiteBaker is stuck in 2008 when it comes to innovation.
"Gemeinsam schafft man mehr."

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Offline jacobi22

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 12:14:19 AM »
@ admins: can we split the themes, please?

When having one forum in (e.q. one language) the info is more accessible
for everyone (who speak English........

yes, who speak English........ and the rest?

in the last four years we have only a hand full new or actualised modules, only for example: modules from Ruud, cwsoft, freesBee, Stefek, Chio, Martin Hecht etc. All this modules are show'n in the english thread and in the german, but never in the german threads only. All messages for the deveplopers are in english, so i did'nt see your problem's.
if you take a look to the nederlands area, you found a lot of support answers from me there. i work in this country for nearly two years, so i understudd a little. Maybe my answers are in bad english, but it solved the most problems there. okay, sometime i need a google translater, but where is the problem? in all my years here the user language was never a problem for me, why it is now a problem for you?
i try to look to "the other side from the desktop" in the eyes of the user with the problem. not everybody is a developer like you, the most of them have only html basic's and knowing nothing about coding standards & languages. if you read the threads, you see, thats is difficult for many people, to explain the problem in their own and native language, doesnt matter, in which language. And its harder, if you have to explain this in a foreign language. make a self-try and write your next problem in a german thread.  :wink:
i know, it is no problem to talk with Darkviper etc in english, also with the module coders, so where is the problem? Write your Questions in the english area and you found a english answer there.

I mean, one of the big points for WB was the forum support in all languages.

I'm sure, if you close the german area here and now, the most of the german speaker goes to a another system or forum with a german support.
Why not a poll about this? a little explain about the problem / the idea, to use the forum in english only and maybe two questions
 - How important is the german area for you?
 - Do you see any Problems for you, if we close this area?

i understudd, that its not easy for you (and all of us) to follow some discussions, if you dont talk this language and i see also the problem, that sometimes a problem-solution is "lost" in a foreign language thread, but the german-speakers-area is not the mother of all WB-Problems

Quote
The German-only development of WB
a german-only-development? Where do you see something like this? have you ever start a (english) discussion about the developement in the last 3 or 4 years? If yes, was the answer's in english or in the bad german only?
Take a look into the Core, there is no german words in the code comments. the only importent information about the development in german, was the info, that WB goes to OOP. Okay, Dietmar has a fight with the death in last year and Werner is now Manu, but these are more private informations
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Offline Stefek

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Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 12:18:43 AM »
Uwe, for what I see, Tez Oner made a suggestion. It's an opinion. Don't take it too seriously.
No one will close the bad german section of the forum.  :-D
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Offline Argos

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 12:38:25 AM »
Uwe, for what I see, Tez Oner made a suggestion. It's an opinion. Don't take it too seriously.
No one will close the bad german section of the forum.  :-D

It started with my suggestion that the development of WB whould be done in English. Jacobi created some crazy spinoff that Germans are not welcome anymore  :roll: :roll:

But the fact is that most development dicsussions are held in the German forums, excluding all other languages. However, English is the language most people know enough to be able to communicate in. WB is an English system, founded and developed by an English speaking guy. German is a minor language in world scale and it is not internationally used in internet related discussions at all.

It's fine that German users have their own forums, but development discussions should be held in English in my opinion. That a German guy feels discriminated about that cannot be taken seriously. What about some Chinese people take over development and discuss in Chinese? That would not be regarded as very cooperative and improving WB's position, would it?
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Offline Stefek

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 12:43:05 AM »
Yes, of course.

At the other hand, if the Chinese would then release something from time to time, that would be fair enough  :-D

"Gemeinsam schafft man mehr."

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Offline Argos

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 12:51:56 AM »
The Chinese don't release, they only take  :cry:
But that's another discussion!
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Offline jacobi22

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2015, 01:37:31 AM »
thx for splitting the discussion!


Jacobi created some crazy spinoff that Germans are not welcome anymore

And Argos created some crazy spinoff that
Quote
Many developing discussions take place only in the German forums, and in my opinion that is one of the reasons of the decreasing popuarity and development of WB...

and Boudi say's
Quote
Let's hope that the (only) German speaking/writing users are starting to realize when this exodus keeps continuing there's no WB left soon.

Ja, is okay, der böse Deutsche wieder......
Welche Art Entwickler-Diskussionen hast du denn öffentlich in den letzten Jahren geführt? Welche wurde denn überhaupt geführt? In meiner Vorstellung und nach den Informationen, die hier auf der Homepage zu finden waren, gab es mal Entwickler-Teams und in diesen Teams wurde festgelegt, in welche Richtung es gehen soll. Von diesen Entwickler-Teams ist wohl aktuell nur noch Manu übrig geblieben, also kaum Platz für riesige Diskussionen.
Nach meinen Vorstellungen soll der Verein die Stimmung der Userschaft aufnehmen und diese, sofern sinnvoll, für die Entwicklung vorschlagen. Hier gab es sicher die eine oder andere Diskussion, z.b. ob ein eigenes Page_Icon möglich ist oder ob dieser oder jener Einstellungspunkt nicht besser bei den erweiterten statt den allgemeinen Optionen aufgehoben ist. Und solche Threads findest du sowohl im englischen wie auch im deutschen Bereich.
Sicher hat z.b. Stefek in seinen Modulvorstellungsth read's (z.b. Seo-Tool) im deutschsprachigem Bereich mehr Postings gehabt als im gleichem englischen Thread und natürlich war das, auf das Modul bezogen, auch eine Entwicklungsdiskuss ion.
Mit Verlaub, so sehr ich das Modul auch mag, mal ehrlich, auch ohne dieses Modul wäre WB in der gleichen Misere, also gehe ich mal davon aus, das mit

Quote from: Argos
developing discussions
auch Core-Entwicklung gemeint ist.
Eine Diskussion, in dem Maße das deutsche User like me festgelegt haben, wohin WB geht, hat es nicht gegeben, weder im englischen, noch im deutschen Bereich.
Es gibt ein Ziel: WB goes OOP mit größtmöglicher Abwärtskompatiblitä t - da gibt es (aus meiner Sicht) auch nicht viel zu diskutieren. Ich als Laie hab vielleicht mal Ideen kundgetan, zu denen irgendwer eine Meinung hatte, aber diese Möglichkeit hattet ihr im englischem Bereich auch. Nur genutzt hat sie keiner.

Zeig uns bzw mir doch einfach mal ein paar Beispiele, wo solche Diskussionen über die Core-Entwicklung stattgefunden haben.

@Boudi: von deinen letzten 20 Problemchen hast du in mindestens 15 Fällen von einem Stupid German wie mir eine helfende Antwort bekommen, u.a. auch, weil von deinen Landsmännern keiner mehr da ist. Ich denke, in der Zukunft wirst du einen Translator benötigen oder drauf verzichten müssen


[ Not to make you even more iritated than you already seem, but this is an English forum, as you are very well aware of. Please write English here, so we can all understand what the angry German has to say. / Edited by argos ]
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 12:37:26 PM by Argos »
Probleme sind da, um sie zu lösen, nicht, um nach Ausreden zu suchen.

Offline Boudi

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2015, 09:22:38 AM »
Hallo Uwe,

Das einzige was ich den ganzen zeit sage ist das viel wichtige diskussionen, patches und aufösungen gerade nur im Deutsch anwesen sind und damit es ein problem gibt für alle nicht Deutschen besucher. Und das ist sönde.

Ich muss aber sagen dat du das verstehst. Dus hast mehrmals mehrere topics Im Deutsch und im English hergestellt wofür dank. Mein Deutsch ist nicht al zu gut aber ich auch probiere im Zweitsprache zu unterhalten wenn möglich :)


[ And the same goes for you. Sorry guys, please stick to the agreements here. / edited by argos ]
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 12:38:40 PM by Argos »
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Offline Yetiie

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2015, 09:38:40 AM »
Hard discussion.

First of all I have to agree with jacobi22 when he indicated, that all (technical) development information are posted in english first (even it is not a very small modul from a developer who may not speek german). The main developers works in german too. IMHO WB is based on an international background.

But indeed: A lot of the main developers and supporters are germans (important is to note: not all, the team up to now is an international team and works on international level!!!). And a very huge number of users are indeed germans too (however this trend developed). As (mostly engaged users, not developers) posts their ideas in their native language a lot of discussion about ideas and strategy to wb is in german ...




WB differences based on language

This trend made some difference.

First of all in the german forum are a lot of very hard discussions. Based on their information there are many users who are not happy with the development of wb. This grows over the last years and comes up to a very hard struggle about the situation of wb at the moment. Cause german developers AND(!) users (sorry to say this) are mostly old-school-developers (germans like me indeed are very traditional people) ideas for modern designs, presentations, webdevelopment, actual technologies ... are blocked (Let's say: table layouts are proofed standard which works in a solid way ... not reason to discuss about modern frameworks or using modern sources .... or even to change it in wb ;-) ).

IMHO: Contrary to this the way of thinking about webdesign in the english forum is more on an international (modern, actual ... and HIGHER) level. And some users in the english forum tends to a similar thinking of the situation of wb. (Indeed the cirtical useres in the englisch forum becomes more and more too.) But the way of discussion up to now is friendly here. Unhappiness and feedback is expressed in a calm way. And even when a developer or supporter leave he goes in a very friendly without making (very) clear (enough) that he is not longer pleased with the way wb develops ...  Let's say: no reason for a typical(!) german not-only-wb-developer to change his way ... ;-)

So the traditional german way wins and decrease of wb goes on ... and on ... and on.




Chances: What could be done?

IMHO it would be a great chance for wb if the international users with the international way to develop webpages would become a larger weight to the decision process.


(1) First chance: international discussion

In the german forum was announced that there will be an online meeting of developers, supporters (and as I understood it) supporting users about the future of wb and working on it (this is not the official election meeting I mentioned yesterday). NOTE: This information was spread by chance in the german forum (and is not an official information up to now which of course will come I believe!!!)

I suggest to make an official international announcment in the different wb language forums. The language of the meeting should be in english (I believe that is the plan) too.

Take part in the meeting ... announce your ideas for wb ... and maybe this will raise an more international impulse for wb :-)



(2) Build a little stone for WB

To be honest: only speeking about ideas for WB is is important and helps to get modern impulses ... but only if you support wb you are able to change it in an active way. (Yes, I know, a lot of the readers hre are engaged yet but maybe you can do  little(!) bit more?)

So: Maybe you would like not only to discuss but to support wb as official supporter, developer. Help for the plattform is NEEDED and WELCOME !!! PLEASE ASK FOR IT. FIRST ASKING FOR POSSIBILITIES AND SUGESTIONS FOR IDEAS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO IT!!! YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IT AFTER YOUR FIRST CONTACT!!!

And: if you would like to do it not fix integrated in a team: maybe you would like to realize a special project (modul, template, framework, i.e.) for wb ... not on your own but on an official base which could be presented on the wb webpage as an official source (not only in an not official way here in the forum). PLEASE ASK FOR THIS TOO!!!

And there are a lot off not official sources in the forum: i.e.: Maybe there is an international bootstrap user who would like to manage a wb bootstrap source pool ... a.s.o. ;-)

And a wish to the development team: please give us a working and modern, attractive, not old-fashioned plattform to conclude our activities for wb !!! (Maybe there is somene here who whants to help in this?) :-)



The opportunity: As more international supporters become part of the off the system as more international webstandards can be integrated to wb.

I am sure: International impulses would help to bring wb back!



Offline Boudi

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Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2015, 10:03:06 AM »
Nice reading  :-)

I offered my help already to one of the boardmembers. Yes I have plans but, and you're right, those plans are modern and/but highly needed in order to keep WB alive.

First things first and that is to create/extend the board with new users/developers who believe in WB and are willing to actively participate in that.

So I think the BEST idea is to motivate users/developers in order to extend the current WB team en spit their ideas and most important: put these ideas into practise.

So, ... count me in!  :mrgreen:

PS; let's give credits for Luisehahe and Darkviper for rebuilding WB as we speak. So important what they're doing right now.
...:: Bake the Unbakable ::...

Offline easyuser

  • Posts: 832
Re: Discussion about English only forum
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2015, 11:26:10 AM »
We should see, that most people are no native English speakers, but speak English because it's the world language (and quite easy to learn / understand).