WebsiteBaker Community Forum
General Community => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Tez Oner on April 19, 2015, 09:23:08 PM
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Eeey,
as the previous thread is been closed on request of Stefek (can imagine' a lil why :wink: )
it had some very constructive thoughts from e.g. Nibz, Stefek, Argos and me (as I can say that).
That whole language **** is clear - period, but - it's a fact that there's some let's call em 'new generation'
who would love to take WB to another level, make it even better as it is, more transparent
and more 'open' source, which would if you ask me speed up the development.
But for that it's needed to have a shared goal - and not individual issues or whatever. There's 1000
ways to have contact / contribute on WB these days, but the development process at the moment
is to unstructured to actually contribute anything. What's needed is to have some structure like any
software development should have, and maybe new methodics.
Just some thoughts.
Cheerz,
Tez Oner
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Just saw the post about the Skype meeting, its sunday :roll: (well see this as an addition) ;)
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Hello Tez
... it's a fact that there's some let's call em 'new generation' who would love to take WB to another level, make it even better as it is, more transparent and more 'open' source, which would if you ask me speed up the development.
Agree with you one hundred percent.
But for that it's needed to have a shared goal - and not individual issues or whatever.
There's 1000 ways to have contact / contribute on WB these days, but the development process at the moment
is to unstructured to actually contribute anything.
What's needed is to have some structure like any software development should have, and maybe new methodics.
That's the main issue.
WB is developed without any transparency at all, let alone having ways to contribute to the core.
The core has become the property of one person.
Only she decides what is good or bad and what comes in or not.
In the german forum it was even said that NO branching system will be set up for the community.
In my opinion it's a waste of potential.
Maybe there will change something (or has already changed) in this philosophy, but till now I have seen no signs of it.
As long as WB is developed behind closed doors instead of in the open, with more contributors involved, there will be no real progress.
Let people work on separate branches, use GitHub or BitBucket (which is even better suited as it costs nothing for OS projects and grants you closed space for experimental Branches), let them work on prototypes and show their results to the community, so the community can decide whether or not it is something worthwhile and should go into the core or if it is only something that is nice but too specific and better be used as a patch.
Until this or some similar concept is realized and set up, I need no meetings.
Too much time wasted already.
Thanks for the consideration.
Stefek
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Just saw the post about the Skype meeting, its sunday :roll: (well see this as an addition) ;)
For now most people have time Thursday or Sunday next week. I spoke with Luisehahne about it, he will be there and perhaps DarkViper (?), so there are also some official persons taking part. :wink:
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Until this or some similar concept is realized and set up, I need no meetings.
Too much time wasted already.
Well, there were wasted 5-7 years and endless hours in four-eyes-meetings and forum posts, I don't think an unofficial meeting is that bad, I think it's a better discussion platform than the forum. But of course nobody has to take part.
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Very good idea.
Just my two cents: to create a goal for whole websitbaker project will be alittle bit complicated ... because the development team has their own planning and as I learned over the last years ...
But the way to improve WB by realising concrete and limited single projects in little teams could be very effective.
######## To be concrete:
My most done suggestion at the moment is a WB-Bootstrap project.
The theme grows up here on WB too.
Means: Making the elements of bootstrap easy accessable to WB.
Done as best-practise-demonstration and/or as starter-template.
Other ideas are:
>>> Standardizse the css for modules ... this has to to with the backend theme ... the idea is a modular css with defined elements which should be used for modules. Standardizing elements means: defne html- und css-structure (classes). On this way it would be possible to have en even look for the modules and to be able to change the look to another design by styling the same elements only with css.
>>> a mulitchanger-module ... not as easy, but multichangers become more and more popular and replaces the picture changers and it would kick the possibilities of WB forward.
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... just as some ideas!
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And one other information:
The last two or three days in a thread one of the development team mentioned, for a wb project he would open a place on the resporitory (as I hd understood that) ... could be a good place to collect and coordinate ... :-)
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+1 for the standardization of modules
This will give faster development - simular look etc.
Hmm, not just +1, I'll give it a +100 :)
John
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>>> Standardizse the css for modules ... this has to to with the backend theme ... the idea is a modular css with defined elements which should be used for modules. Standardizing elements means: defne html- und css-structure (classes). On this way it would be possible to have en even look for the modules and to be able to change the look to another design by styling the same elements only with css.
Yetiie,
this is rather easy. But it begins with the backend-theme itself.
Once you have the backend-modules (like settings, page-settings etc.) and some of the packaged modules (like news, form-module etc.) reworked you end up with the necessary HTML structure for way over 80% of all modules. This HTML structure and its CSS definitions then can be easily applied in the modules developed by the community.
So yes. Doable. And long overdue.
>>> a mulitchanger-module ...
What do you mean by that?
Stefek
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@pcwacht
Thx for support. I think we are in the same direction ... :-)
And for wb it would be indeed a very big chance to doing it.
@Stefek
Once more same direction :-)
Indeed. Exactly that's the way to do it!
But to be honest: Based on the experience with the new backend theme this IMHO only really makes sense with(!) little support of the development team :-( The problem to style this special page on the backend is, that the code is hard coded by php (very old code from the beginning of the cms, someone reported from about the 80th). And the modules in the html code are not separated which makes it very hard and could not be a very special work only (i.e. spaces or placements in the inner of the module area can not be set).
>>> But: The solution could be very easy:
A workarround without writing module code output completely new (which indeed is not possible for the team at the moment) would be to ad the output of an simple div-container arround any module-output with some special classes (i.e. class: module-area, maybe(!) if not to much work class with module-name).
>>> Chance:
This could be done for 2.8.4 with very little engagment as it is a very small and neutral changing of the code output and without risk as neutral divs does not affect working code.
>>> Situation:
The development team especially the responsible member for the core in the german forum made VERY CLEAR that there will not be done any changes on the output code (as writing backend templates in later future wb versions will become very easy so bakcend development is not necessary to this up to now).
>>> What could be done:
Nothing is fix and maybe someone is able to change his mind. Even if there are a lot of supporters for this idea - maybe the development team changes their mind.
Possible realisation
In this case I would be on board: as the first step I would do the basic and adapt the new backend theme to 2.8.4 so it could be used up from the mostly beginning (I don't know the actual timing ... three month, one year :? actual they are working on next SP for .3 I believe). Then we could do a team to define standard elements and add it step for step to the template. Someone does the documentation ...
... and step for step a little team could improve wb a lot without need of wb development team.
Ok, - to start a little coming up of the development team would be needed. That could be the most difficult thing I am affraid.
So: the question is: Are here ...
... some more who would support the idea?
... some who would like maybe to engage themself?
(Especially help on documentation would be very helpful. Maybe the new wiki could be a good/right place for it.)
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NOTE: Just to be sure. Don't be anxious. As the layout works up to now the modules do not have to be change if the maintainers don't like it.
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Yetiie,
all what you say and are asking for is on my schedule (and work in progress on my personal derivat/fork).
That's why I am asking (for some years already) for branched community development.
I have reworked almost 80-90% of the backend to make it ready for TWIG.
Having done it, you have no more problems with hardcoded php spaghetti code and such thing anymore. You only concentrate on the template.
Of course the way I have worked on the code is different then the way Luisehahne would do. Or DarkViper.
But the resulting TWIG Templaes and its variables would stay more or less the same - giving the possibility to work upon the backend theme without colliding with other parts of the core.
As I said in my first post in this thread:
Let people work on separate branches, use GitHub or BitBucket (which is even better suited as it costs nothing for OS projects and grants you closed space for experimental Branches), let them work on prototypes and show their results to the community, so the community can decide whether or not it is something worthwhile and should go into the core or if it is only something that is nice but too specific and better be used as a patch.
Until this or some similar concept is realized and set up, I need no meetings.
Too much time wasted already.
And when I say "too much" I really mean it.
Stefek
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@Stefek
I am not quite sure if I understand you right.
You are working on a new backend theme?
That would be great :-) :-) :-)
For what version?
So we don't have to adapt the new theme to 2.8.4?
With Twig?
So did you change the code output of the core or doe you write about working on the core yourself?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
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Hi Yetii and Stefek,
I agree with you both, we need to work together, lets be a T.E.A.M. (Together Everyone Achieves More).
Stefek, i though would like to have the meeting to discuss the possibility to make this happen.
I claimed the WebsiteBaker github name, and made a repo: https://github.com/WebsiteBaker/WebsiteBaker
I also made a github for templates: https://github.com/WebsiteBaker-templates (possibility to have 1 repo per template).
And i also made a github for modules: https://github.com/WebsiteBaker-modules where i put all the modules which are active on the addons repo and am adding more.
I think it's not a problem to work on github because we could make branches and i for one don't mind that everyone can see the development (also nightly builds or even not yet approved codes which maybe will never see daylight). WE as a TEAM are a Open Source community and i think even the development can be opensourced, any- and everyone should be able to contribute with the understanding that the CORE crew will need to approve the pull requests etc.
I hope you would reconsider not joining the community meet and open discussion about WebsiteBaker and probobly it's future. The more people that are for the "TEAM" idea the more the more probable it is the idea will see daylight sooner.
If it's to me everyone is welcome to pull requests at my WebsiteBaker github's, and if someone of the CORE DEV team needs access they only need to ask and they will get it!.
Hope we can move WebsiteBaker to 2015!
And don't forget: "Together Everyone Achieves More".
Kind regards,
Robin (Nibz)
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@Yetiie
It's all written there.
It's my personal branch.
Version does not matter. If you understand something about branching, you will see that it does not matter.
2.8.4. will come with whatever is scheduled by the Dev Team. But it looks like they will pull out yet another phpLib based Backend Theme. Exactly the technology that gives you the pain in the ass:
Yetiie: Based on the experience with the new backend theme this IMHO only really makes sense with(!) little support of the development team sad The problem to style this special page on the backend is, that the code is hard coded by php (very old code from the beginning of the cms, someone reported from about the 80th).
And exactly the same reasons why Argos stoped his development on his Backend Theme.
If you still don't understand:
I am working on getting rid of phpLib and on a implementation of TWIG.
Yes, I am doing the php myself in order to make the /admin ready for TWIG.
When the work is done, no more pain in the ass for you, as you will have all the freedom you need in order to design the backend theme as you see fit.
Last year DarkViper wrote (sorry for german here):
"Schon mit der Umstellung des ACP auf Twig wird(hoffentlich immer noch huh) Stefek in diesen Spezialbereich mit einsteigen. Wir werden das erste Modul, die Prototypen, zusammen erarbeiten und sobald er 'es geschluckt' hat, wird er den Rest in Abstimmung mit mir durchziehen. Auch ist abgesprochen, dass er dann für diesen Bereich sein eigenes, kleines Team zusammenstellen kann und ich selbst hier nur noch als Kontroll- und Koordinationsinstan z eingreifen werde."
source: http://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php?topic=27237.0
Quick Translation (google):
"With the change in the ACP to twig Stefek (hopefully still ) will join me in this special area. We will develop the first module, the prototypes together and as soon as he has 'swallowed it', he will do the rest, in coordination with run through me. it is also agreed that he can put together his own small team in this area and I myself would intervene here only as a control and coordinations entity. "
But it just takes too long.
You see. One year has gone by just like that.
That's why I am doing it now on myself now.
It will take for the Devs some years (in the speed the development goes) until she is ready to start with what I have already accomplished.
That's why I am pushing for branched community development. (See my first post in this thread)
Everybody benefits and WBs development is faster.
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@all: [OT] Aaah ... I remember. NIBZ: You have been the one who offered the resporitory ... really thought to remember the suggestion came from the dev team. As I reported wrong I apologize for this bad memory.[/OT]
@nibz: In general a good idea. But let's do one step after another ... first theme and supporter who would like to engage on a concrete project. Than how they like to work and organize ... your repository could be a possibility :-)
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WE as a TEAM are a Open Source community and i think even the development can be opensourced, any- and everyone should be able to contribute with the understanding that the CORE crew will need to approve the pull requests etc.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Now more and more people are joining my protest as I see 8-)
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For this day I've waited for a long time...(ok, for my DSL-connection over 13 years!!!) :wink:
Maybe for some people(dev-team core and others) this would be a relief or discharging and makes (their) life easier.
This is a real win-win-situation for everybody. Nobody loses here or should think this.
...waiting was worth it.
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@Stefek
Ok ... that's a lot stuff.
Please let sort it to my brain :wink:
>>> First of all:
Did I get it right that the dev team is working on an complete different backend theme technique for version 2.8.4?
I thought (as it has been reported, did not test 2.8.4 at all up to now) that the Flat-Theme would amlmost work on 2.8.4 and only some adaptions to icons and htts had to be done to nclude the nwe functionalltitys?
Could you please give me an update especially for it?
And what is your information for the actual (I know, actul is not reality) planned timing?
>>> Your twig preparings
Just to get an impression: do I understand it right now that twig is not an official item for 2.8.4 and your engagement is preliminary but not official work on the core(?????) which could be used from everyone who would like to download it (up from on wich version?).
Sorry, but I am a little bit irritated ... ;-)
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It's all being said.
Just read again what I have written already.
Sorry, my time is limited (we have work-day).
Edit: I don't know what the Dev is planing for 2.8.4. as the development is not in the open (and that's what we are talking about here).
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Well. Have a nice but not to hard day.
And announce yourself when time is back if u like :-)
[ I read yout statements twice and more ... but I have to say, I did not get it clear. I am not involved in the wb structure and plannings ... and not sure about a starting point and what we are talking about ... ]
To improve the official WB i.e. with a theme makes sense if there are not three people working on the same issue?
Standardizing css elements for modules would be great in every case but where is the official starting point we canbase on?
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OK. So far for the moment. As Tez Oner asked:
Are there other suggestions and Ideas?
Are there oghters who would like to engage themself?
And who would like to maintain the idea of standardizing css elements for mudule development?
Even (maybe only) if there are enough people the dev team could change their mind and prepare the little requirement for it to 2.8.4?
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Did I get it right that the dev team is working on an complete different backend theme technique for version 2.8.4?
its possible to use also TWIG for the templates in 2.8.4 for front- or backend themes - also, not only :wink:
I thought (as it has been reported, did not test 2.8.4 at all up to now) that the Flat-Theme would amlmost work on 2.8.4 and only some adaptions to icons and htts had to be done to nclude the nwe functionalltitys?
The Flat-Theme works very fine under 2.8.4
there are some missing language variables at the moment, because they a renamed in 2.8.4 or new functions
Simple Solution: you use a language file inside of the template, then it works together in a 2.8.3 or 2.8.4. Its also possible to use own translations or regional languages like bavarian etc
Another Way: rename the relatet PLACE HOLDERS in the htt-files, but then you need a special 2.8.4 -version
do I understand it right now that twig is not an official item for 2.8.4
TWIG is a official item of the 2.8.4
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@ Yet
Of course, I agree.
What we are talking mainly here, is what Tez said when he started the thread:
But for that it's needed to have a shared goal - and not individual issues or whatever. There's 1000
ways to have contact / contribute on WB these days, but the development process at the moment
is to unstructured to actually contribute anything. What's needed is to have some structure like any
software development should have, and maybe new methodics.
Your work and you theme and your skills are very good and shouldn't be wasted.
That's what I can say in case you feel insecure about it.
We can have meetings and all that but only AFTER the Verein decided that WB is a community developed, open source project again (as it is not at this time).
If the old structure (with One-Dev-Do-It-All-Cuz-He-Knows-Best) stays in place, such meetings are rather pointless.
Development will stay as it is and in 3-4 years you will have ACP (Admin Control Panel = Backend) realized with Twig and all the backend is working in-sync with the modules backends etc.
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Did I get it right that the dev team is working on an complete different backend theme technique for version 2.8.4?
its possible to use also TWIG for the templates in 2.8.4 for front- or backend themes - also, not only :wink:
First of all, 2.8.4. is not out yet.
Second, I doubt that 2.8.4. will make it possible to use Twig themes for the ACP.
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Are there other suggestions and Ideas?
As said for years: Let people work, don't forbid it.
Are there oghters who would like to engage themself?
If there's a fundamental change regarding development and planning WB: Yes, I would do something.
If it's going the same way since 2009: No.
And who would like to maintain the idea of standardizing css elements for mudule development?
Even (maybe only) if there are enough people the dev team could change their mind and prepare the little requirement for it to 2.8.4?[/b]
1. The WB team has to say: Yes, we like the idea, that people not involved in the core development team do something for WebsiteBaker - not just writing wikis or finding bugs.
2. People will come, I'm sure.
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Are there other suggestions and Ideas?
As said for years: Let people work, don't forbid it.
Are there oghters who would like to engage themself?
If there's a fundamental change regarding development and planning WB: Yes, I would do something.
If it's going the same way since 2009: No.
And who would like to maintain the idea of standardizing css elements for mudule development?
Even (maybe only) if there are enough people the dev team could change their mind and prepare the little requirement for it to 2.8.4?[/b]
1. The WB team has to say: Yes, we like the idea, people not involved in the core development team do something for WebsiteBaker.
2. People will come, I'm sure.
Agree Michael.
Why not starting a poll?
Do you want WebsiteBaker to be a community developed project, with several teams working on branches and adding ideas, prototypes and improvements to the core?
[] Yes
[] No
[] I don't care - I only take :evil:
Let people vote and they also can talk about their decision openly (just like in this thread).
The "Verein" should take into consideration the outcome and act accordingly.
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Ok ... slowly it became more clear. Thx.
And great reactions up to now :-)
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Just to make especially the idea of the theme and the css elements for modules clear:
The new backend theme could be prepare to 2.8.4 without affecting core and without dev team.
Only the defintive starting point is needed and this ist at least clear when the version is published.
In this case there is nothind to forbid. That's the charme of the project :-)
With the very little mentioned requirement it would be possible to AND would make sense to develop html/css elements for module development without affection core or further work of dev team. And just to avoid misunterstandings:
- the actual modules stays as they are (their look does not change)!
- the elements don't need be used for module development (of course every developer is able to do his own thing)!
- if someone does not like the styling it would be easier to change it because the css could be changed ... of course!
In this case there is nothing to forbid too ... but not to do the little requirment would prevent it by dev team as this work does not make sense ;-)
So: if you like it --> maintain/support it and vote for so the dev team includes this litle requirement to 2.8.4
Your chance or better: the chance of the comunity :-) :-) :-)
And other and more ideas are welcome ... as well !!!
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@Stefek
Do you want WebsiteBaker to be a community developed project ...
The idea has charme ... but I am not quite sure if this ist not too much and a step to far ... for the moment.
We will see :-)
So let's have a look to things too we can do without affecting the dev team.
Preparing the Bootstrap elements to WB ... could be another theme ... if there are some interessted in ... ;-)
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@Stefek
Do you want WebsiteBaker to be a community developed project ...
The idea has charme ... but I am not quite sure if this ist not too much and a step to far ...
Yes, I have already obseved that you look at the things from your perspective. From what you are interested in (i.e. the Backend Theme). The same is the case for the Dev - she thinks only her perspective and speed of work is the one correct. And that's why WB ain't a community project anymore.
People like Tez, Boudi, Michael and many many many others with some experience regarding the bureaucracy of WB management already know how annoying contribution to this project has been in the past. You are yet to find it out, my friend ;-)
When nothing changes, well... nothing changes.
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Yes, I have already obseved that you look at the things from your perspective. From what you are interested in (i.e. the Backend Theme).
Oh ... no, no, no :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
To be honest I am not interessted in special things not even the backend theme. The backend theme ... you know from the german forum how it grew up ... ;-) I am interested in improvemtent of WB itself does not matter what item !!! And I am EXACTLY on your side ... !!! Your idea of branch development is the right way I believe. But indeed I am affraid it is a step to far way ... with the actual organizing structure and of cause the actual leadership.
Indeed I think:
Activating people to engage themselve ...
Activating the community to tell what they would like have ...
... could be more successfull even if there are more reachable (concrete and limmited) projects which could be realized without the dev team! (And there are a lot of possivilities. And this could make change the complicated mind of the dev team ... if they see it works. This is what I would like to do.
This could (but don't must) be (just spinning):
- Backend theme with standardizing CSS module elements ...
- Bootstrap ...
- A group which would like to organize the rest of the modules on a plattform if the team don't like to improve the module plattform themselve ... (you know we had this and the people for it but no support but icy silnce of the leaders which prevent this)
... or any other idea people would like to to :-)
[ So additional ideas and signals of engagment are welcome. ]
Indeed our ideas are not far away. You wonna work in separted teams on parts of the official project and improve it ... I wonna work in little separated teams on concrete possibilities to improve WB too without need to affect the official project to activate the process.
The best: both works :-) :-) :-) :-)
And both works together.
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And as I see it. The last days hope grows to the people here. I hope the dev team does not destroy it once more as they did in the past to any project or attempt which they could not understand or which they did not like ... better way would to be to lead the trend than to play the big boss nobody accept and even dont take serously anymore. Well, maybe the comming meeting will be a change ... ;-)
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Yes, I have already obseved that you look at the things from your perspective. From what you are interested in (i.e. the Backend Theme).
Oh ... no, no, no :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
To be honest I am not interessted in special things not even the backend theme. The backend theme ... you know from the german forum how it grew up ... ;-) I am interested in improvemtent of WB itself does not matter what item !!! And I am EXACTLY on your side ... !!! Your idea of branch development is the right way I believe. But indeed I am affraid it is a step to far way ... with the actual organizing structure and of cause the actual leadership.
So, that's what I am talking about.
Of course the first step is, to have the Verein see a need for change of its past structures and patterns.
If the main developer has a veto right on anything regarding development, it's not a Community Project.
I want WebsiteBaker to be a community project, developed and created by the community.
I want DarkViper to be a team player, not what she is currently presenting herself as.
There is actually nothing wrong with that.
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Indeed our ideas are not far away. You wonna work in separted teams on parts of the official project and improve it ... I wonna work in little separated teams on concrete possibilities to improve WB too without need to affect the official project to activate the process.
The best: both works :-) :-) :-) :-)
And both works together.
I am sure we have parallels in our ideas.
Primarly I want that WB is developed by the community on a branch system(like GitHub or even better, BitBucket).
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@Stefek
... so we are trying the same ... but with different sub-targets and little similar steps :-)
Yeah, a little change of working of the leadership would be very good for the project. It is allways the same (not a special wb systematic): a big boss prevents ... people go and boss fails and with him the project ... the leaders coordinate ... and get all they want and even more ;-)
Have hope ;-)
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Have hope ;-)
Hope? :-D
OK, if you say so :lol:
Yeah, a little change of working of the leadership would be very good for the project. It is allways the same (not a special wb systematic): a big boss prevents ... people go and boss fails and with him the project ... the leaders coordinate ... and get all they want and even more ;-)
Yeah, full ack on that.
Let's end for now and let others speak, my friend.
Kind regards,
Stefek
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Eeey,
kinda flabbergasted by the optimistic response :lol: and as there
definitly some key-issue / wishes we need to structure the issues
to 'framed' sections like; backend (functionality / theme / methodics
/ consistency), frontend (functionality / consistency / functions /
templates).
From there look if there some tool for collabration, to add bugs / features
etc etc. And what maybe more interresting are the additions / forks that
are already made by community members (e.g. the fact that Stefek modded
the backend for 80% with new code, that are awesome things would (if you
ask me) speeds up the development dramatically!
And I would love to hear from the WB Dev team what they think of the thoughts!
Cheerz,
Tez Oner