WebsiteBaker Community Forum
WebsiteBaker => General Announcements => Topic started by: Ryan on November 07, 2008, 03:34:57 PM
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Hello everyone,
I am writing this post in an effort to open up discussions on the future of WebsiteBaker, and to receive some feedback about what the community in general would like to see happen with version 2.x
First let me start by saying, WebsiteBaker 3 will be free and Open Source. However, to ensure that I can commit more of my time to the ongoing development, I have found a way to integrate it into my working day; I have started a company that will offer a slightly modified (additional modules, etc) and rebranded version as a fully hosted Software-as-a-Server (Saas) application, for a small fee. It will be based off the same code-base, and therefore will make it a part of my job to maintain the code on a regular basis (and not just after-hours). I believe this will have a large impact on ensuring the code is well maintained and frequently updated.
To give everyone a quick update on the development of version 3: alpha2 is expected to be ready for release in the coming day(s), we should see a beta within weeks and hopefully an RC before the years end. This means by January/February next year, 3.0 will be released as stable. For the latest status, visit the version 3 page at: www.WebsiteBaker.or g/3
Now, with regards to WebsiteBaker 2. As some of you may be aware, several community members are currently in the process of forking the current version 2 release into a new project. I have communicated with them on this, and although I do not think it is the best for efficiency purposes, I cannot stop them from doing it so I believe it is best to support them in any way I can. However, since examining the current position of the community a little closer, I've come to realise that our community is becoming very fractured and divided. Yes for the last few years development has basically stalled (mainly due to my poor efforts in delivering version 3 following the initial announcement 3 years ago), however I believe the most recent 2.7 release was a very positive step forward.
Ideally, I would love to see a 2.8 release within the coming months. I think it would not be unreasonable to make some fairly significant structural changes, that really do need to be done. I don't think it would matter if users are required to run a special upgrade script to migrate to 2.8, as in the past minor releases required this also (e.g. upgrading from 2.6.x to 2.7.x). However, the chances of realising a 2.8 release at the moment are dim; as a community our resources seem to be very scattered and inactive. This is due to poor leadership. I accept for responsibility for the poor leadership over the last few years.
Although I was trying to concentrate on my education in 2006/2007, it is no excuse for letting down our community and its members. However, I see no point in worrying about the past. I simply would like to move forward, and would like to see our community and project move forward. This is why I am calling for some open discussion on the projects future.
WebsiteBaker 3 is something that, as outlined above, will be managed by myself on a day-to-day basis. It is therefore a non-issue for me finding the time to be managing the project. However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.
Also, if anyone has feedback on how they think our teams should be structured, who should be in which teams, etc. please provide feedback.
The main motivation for this post is to avoid have two projects running side-by-side, duplicating the amount of work. It is possibly too late to be posting this, as some community members may have already made their minds up on forking. However, I believe it would be best for everyone if we could work together. Please do not hesitate to speak up on this matter. I look forward to your thoughts and feedback! :-D
Ryan
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Hello Ryan.
Thanks for this open discussion.
I am member of the community since a year and - maybe another ones will disagree with me - I think the comunity made amazing progress in the last few months.
You are right in that point, that there is to less effort in the manner of shoulder-to-shoulder activities.
However, I don't think, that a WB Fork will survive for long after separating from the official community.
And I know, that there is a lot of chances for the future of WB 2.x (at that time I can't say anything about WB3).
New ways of expansion, new ways to get people involved.
I'm very optimistic in this point.
I can't say too much about the Leadership. They're trying the best to keep WB going and we are hardly working on new stategies to improve the popularity of WB. I am very optimistic, that we will do a good job here.
I am also curious about the WB 2.8 - I don't know when it will be released, because I am not so much involved in the Core-Developement. But I am sure this will be the best release ever.
There is another Point I want to give certainty to all WebsiteBaker Users and the Community.
I attatched a Statistic Graph which shows the statistics from the starting point of the WB Project until the present time.
As you see, the the activity increases.
(http://zgadywanka.com/img/posts_per_month.png)
One thing we really need (as you can see in the next Graph), is new members - and this is not the part of the Dev-Team. The System is quite OK.
(http://zgadywanka.com/img/new_members.png)
The Marketing Team is working on new Strategies to expand WebsiteBaker, it's understanding, acceptance.
We're just a few and because we also are running our own businesses, the work is not as fast as we wish, but there is no reason for frustration.
WebsiteBaker lives :-P
But you are also right, that you wasn't active here for so long.
But as you know, the Community understands your personal needs and there is no one who will mind to blame you for this.
Thank you for WebsiteBaker.
I am looking forward to the WB 2.8 and will contribute to this project as much as I can.
Regards,
Stefek
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hi,
im a simple user since about an half jear!
my english is poor, my knowledge about the www is poor....
but i'm eager for knowledge, i cram the stuff, the forum is great with all his talented several members...
so that the this is the wonder of WebsiteBaker.
such a guy like me can creat a website!
for me, as simple user the only thing should be to bring back a consistant struktur in the wb-world.
for example the new helpsides or the topic with the needs for new released moduls...
in fact wb it is worth the trouble of hard work! (this was a newbie's mind;)
regards martin
EDIT: About the fork stuff...... :-D for me as a farmer (yes a farmer;) the adage counts
"evolution beats always revolution all along"
at least in my business...but i think it is one of the first ever and portable to all the rest of them
regards martin :-D
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Hello Martin,
thank you.
Even 250 new registrations per month is woth doing it, right :-P
for me, as simple user the only thing should be to bring back a consistant struktur in the wb-world.
for example the new helpsides or the topic with the needs for new released moduls...
Yes, the Help Project is the main point in order to make WB more '"getable" and accessible.
As I told above, we are creating something really awesome right now.
Everyone who is loving WB will fall in love even more.
For this is the hard work and I hope to double and tripple the registrations rate once we are finished.
May the WB Community flourish and prosper.
Regards,
Stefek
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I have been very happy with WB and the community. Some stuff goes unanswered but I have always felt more comfortable with WB compared with some of the monster packages out there. Assuming I could afford it I would move to a paid version with better support if you switched. I'm a fan now so I don't really want to go anywhere else and learn something new as long as WB continues to meet my modest needs.
I have no suggestions on the teams.
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Hi Ryan
I am representing a group of about 10 active communtiy members.
However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.
For we think wb 2.X is worth to get more and deeper attention and should be developed to a higher level ( and yes, we agree that wb is deseasing under poor leadership and less structure), we are willing to take your offer to step into project administration at all.
Please let me know, how and when this could happen from your point of view.
We also see, that a fork is a feasible way, but we agrree with you, that holding the community together would be the better way.
I appologize for my poor English but I hope you could get this post as it was meant.
Would like to hear your suggestions soon.
Best wishes
erpe
PS: Maybe it would lead to more success to take this thread to the German and other language forums too...............
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I would like to say hello to everyone in the WebsiteBaker Community and introduce myself!
I am John, Though I have only been with the WebsiteBaker Community for a little over
a year now and have tried to be a part of the community on a daily bases and answer
to request and your post.
This was not my intention to bring this matter into such a public forum for discussion.
But for once I am glade to see some effort in Ryan to bring a very serious matter to the
community. Though I think the way this has now been handled was and is in poor
judgment on Ryan's part. And in my upon prematurely on his part. Though some emails
past back and forth about this matter between Ryan and I. This was the one thing that
should not have come to light.
Though I am standing strong that a new direction of leadership, team development
and complete structure of WebsiteBaker needs to take place and be formed and
this is the reason I and a few others decided to create a fork in the road.
Though post like this
However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.
is by forth just one of the reasons there is problems within the Website baker community.
Because community members are bring up matters not team leaders or team members.
I believe a very serious effort to move forward with the next version within the 2.x development is needed
but this can't be done until some issues like
- Leadership
- Structure
- Development
- SVN
- Contribution Area
- Better contact with community members
are just a small part of a bigger and serious issues.
And in my option should not have reach this point
unless all means were exhausted by communications
directly with Ryan and I.
I don't know, but I think some questions that are not being asked are
Is it to late?
Did this get so far out of hand there is no turning back?
Is it an issue that should have got this far?
Is this something that could have been resolved?
Will this bring the community closer in development?
Is Ryan now lessoning to the community concerns now? and it is to late?
Does this community need restructuring? and if so by who?
Should this matter have come to the public or should it have been handled better in private?
This is just some of my questions and concerns.
And as I stated in my emails to Ryan, I am open to a channel of direct communication with Ryan and Doc
and offer a invataion to do so, If ether Ryan or Doc want to talk about this please Contact me..
Before this goes to far and gets out of control.
JP
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I must say I find it hard to understand Johnp's post. :| Apparently there are disagreements between Ryan and some new developers.
First of all I'd like to say that even though Ryan states to have failed as a leader, I don't blame him: he started WB as a young kid and managed to bring it as far as it is today, which I consider a truly remarkable achievement. On many occasions I was surprised by his ability to explain why he had decided the project should develop in a certain way, showing plenty and convincing leadership. Also in this particular post he shows to be open minded, explaining his motives and showing that he wants the best for all of us, without condemnation to those who want to fork the project, which makes him more mature than many elder men.
Now, one of the beautiful things of this community is that so many people are committed to WB that I hadn't even noticed the lack of direction: WB2.7 is a beautiful product, many addons are posted, and every now and then a brilliant developer joins the team or gets involved in some other way, so I'm grateful and willl stick to WB anyway.
Of course like all of us I'm curious to see WB3, and I think Ryan has made some good decisions on his commitment to the development. Also I'm a little anxious that it may take a lot more time to have WB3 as rich and functional as 2.7 is right now, but we'll wait and see.
I hope that those who want to fork the project will be able to maintain the high level support and friendliness that we have today on the forum, because I think that is one of the main 'selling points' of this CMS.
I wish Ryan good luck and Johnp c.s. good spirit and wisdom.
Vincent
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My opinion on this matter as one of the older members, in wb years and in age, will be 50 in a fortnight.
First some facts:
WB2 core is good, very good, very stable
WB3 might be better, dunnoh haven't seen it yet, but can't say it will be worse!. You can't say it will be worse without seeing it.
WB community is sound, new members don't even know the leader Ryan is hardly around, as it should be in a project as this
WB community is very active
What I think,
Fork, don't, splitting up active members is stupid and to me there is no reason to fork - there are no argueing , no direction you don't want to follow etc.
WB2.8, why? What has been developped to make a new wb core? Nothing yet.
Maybe some WB commited members who are willing to put time and effort should take over the 2 branche freeing Ryan's time even more for wb3 thus keeping WB2 fibrant.
If I had time and could commit it to WB I would, really, I would ask Ryan to give me the 2 branche and try to keep it alive as it is today.
Have fun!
John
Not JohnP but PCWacht ;)
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(sorry for my poor english)
A year ago I wrote in my german blog: WebsiteBaker is a "Bonsai CMS" - it is kept small consciously, for reasons I dont know.
If you want a tree, you shall not water a Bonsai, but take the seed and grow a real tree. Therefore I understand those WebsiteBaker Fans, who think a fork would be the best solution. I understand this, but I think it is not clever. I think, one should try to change WebsiteBaker from here - the one and only WebsiteBaker.org site.
In my opinion the problem is not too few leadership, but too much. Too much, but incapably leadership. To be a good programmer doesnt mean to be a good leader.
A lot of things going wrong here.
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Chio makes an interesting point. Maybe what is needed is to look at something like Blender http://www.blender.org/ did several years ago. They were great programmers but couldn't handle the management after the product really took off and the project almost died. Maybe we should look at them a little and see how the run - very very successfully since they managed to reorganize.
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Hello,
here are two interesting links dealing with managing open source projects which may stimulate further discussions on this topic.
http://producingoss.com/
http://producingoss.com/en/managing-volunteers.html
Regards Christian
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Hello,
I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for.
Neither me nor one of the guys I am representing are involved in JohnP's fork.
We want (like Chio said) work on wb 2 series from out of this place and try our best, to keep this cms alive and successful.
So I hope, Ryan's offer was that serious as we took it.
Would like to hear from Ryan soon.
rgds
erpe
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I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for.
Maybe you should check your PMs before posting :-)
Christian
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A year ago I wrote in my german blog: WebsiteBaker is a "Bonsai CMS" - it is kept small consciously, for reasons I dont know. If you want a tree, you shall not water a Bonsai, but take the seed and grow a real tree.
Hm, aren't the stated goals of Website baker to be simple and easy to use? I fear if WB grows to be a fully-fledged tree, then simplicity and ease will be lost. For many projects, WB is just the right fit exactly because of its manageable "bonsai" size, other "redwood tree" systems like Drupal or Joomla wood be much too complicated and heavy-weight. So the question is: What kind of tree does the community *want* WB to grow? I fear the controversial opinions are starting already here.
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Hello Cito.
That's a nice point.
My opinion: WebsiteBaker as a system is brilliant. It can be bettered out, but it's quite OK.
The Leadership is trying the best - unfortunatly there has been some frustrations in the coder scene. But it has nothing to do with the community as a whole thing. They have some disagreements. It has nothing to do with "bad" Leadership. It has to do with "Future Goals" and "Purposes".
Since Ryan is no more interested in WB 2 there will be some things changed, but we do not need a new leadership. All we need is some tolerance and patience.
Why? Because this circumstances ARE new. We allways hoped, Ryan will be somehow involved into the communities needs, but now we see, that he is working on another Projects.
So now we know his decision and will very soon come up with a new, better managed structure. I know that there is so many people who will contribute.
We simply love this simplicity which WebsiteBaker represents. And yes - we don't need to fork. And yes, again, Ryan - You did a good job. We're courious abot WB 3.
We will move that ship.
Regards,
Stefek
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@doc
thanks for this advice.
rgds
erpe
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@Stefek
Since Ryan is no more interested in WB 2 there will be some things changed, but we do not need a new leadership. All we need is some tolerance and patience.
That's exactly the problem: the leader is no longer interessted in his project but there is no need for a new leadership...
Don't you think, that there is something wrong with your statement? Wake up!
Regards
Ralf
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@ Ralf
Maybe there is a different meaning of "leadership".
The point you see : Ryan is the leader
The point stefek and many others (in the german - european? - community see : ruebenwurzel and doc
I agree with you, Ryan isn't longer interestet in the 2.x Version and will the work on the 3.x give his focus.
O.k.
But is there a real need for a new leadership (as I mentioned above) ? Did ruebenwurzel and doc made such a bad job?
Had they ever the chance to "lead" without the need to wait for instructions from Ryan?
Just my thoughts
Regards Bernd
P.S.: Mein Englisch ist echt für'n Ar*** um das auszudrücken, was ich genau meine ...
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Of course I talk about WebsiteBaker as the _whole thing_, not the core. The core is good and stable, and there are just a few things I would really add or make better (the media section? The News-Module?).
What WB needs, is someone who holds things together, avoids double work. It can be a democratic prozess to define the main targets, but one must keep them in mind and arrange duties. And persuade people to accept it.
For example I made a new Template-Search - which was ment to replace the old template search here. Of course - one could talk about improvements, and I know the code isnt the best. I am a designer, not a coder.
But: There were some PMs, then: end. Not interested. Now there is a new Template Search here - and another on my page. Where does this lead to?: I can only step forward and increase my template search - or should I delete it without a trace? Shurely not.
The same will happen with the "All Modules and Snippets Project". And it happend with a lot of good things before. Instead of keeping things together, people are forced to make their own things.
Do I sound frustrated? Yep - that might be. And I am not the only one.
(Many thanks to LEO - the online dictionary ;-)
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Hello,
just a statement to make things clear. I will not take over any leadership position for the WB2 project in the future. I do like coding not leading a community. There are some volunteers out there (e.g. Erpe, John ak pcwacht) so it is up to Ryan to nominate a new project lead in order to give the WB2 project a visible organisation and a new structure.
Leading a community never was and will be my business :-)
Regards Christian
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This is something, what is a little too misunderstandable.
Why?
Because for the last years you have braught a lot of changes into the WebsiteBaker Project.
I think you have done a good Job.
I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
And I don't think that you will or want to withdraw from any position you owe.
Yes, we have a lot of volunteers, good people - contributing in the right direction. But I can't imagine WB without "DOC" as a Addons-Leader.
You don't need to move that ship all alone.
Take position and line all the vollunteers up. I think this is the best solution for the whole community and websitebakers future.
Otherwise, if someone has to take over your postion, so it should be someone who can grant the future of WB.
It shouldn't be decided by one man.
Regards,
Stefek
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Maybe there is a different meaning of "leadership".
The point you see : Ryan is the leader
The point stefek and many others (in the german - european? - community see : ruebenwurzel and doc
ok - perhaps my sight is too strong.
And your are right: I think too the german/european community will see ruebenwurzel and doc as the leaders.
But:
just a statement to make things clear. I will not take over any leadership position for the WB2 project in the future.
and Ruebenwurzel is still not present (and I asssume: not interesseted in the future of WB 2).
This mean: we have shurely to talk about a team which is willed to continue the development of WB 2 and we will still need a leadership for this team.
I'm highly interested to continue the development of WB 2, there is no other CMS which is so easy to handle and to adapt to the needs of the users. Because I'm not interested in leading anything and my time is too small for endless discussions I will really need a good leadership for this project... 8-)
Regards
Ralf
P.S. @Bernd: ich würd' ach libba Klaaaatexxt spräche... :-D
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Just to clarify my point of view, Ralf, Bernd.
For long time we moved nowhere, because anyone seemed to be waiting for Ryans hint.
Also the Leaders.
I allways stood behind the Official Leadership and I allways will do.
It has nothing to do because I am living in Germany or Europe. WebsiteBaker should be known WW.
At the other hand, Ralf, I understand that you need good Leading.
I need a good CMS so I am glad if you have the Leadership you need in order to stay productive :wink:
The point is: there is no reason yet for a Fork, and there is no reason to nominate a new leadership.
As Bernd said, nothing was so bad until now.
THIS is a new circumstance. Ryan has allway been here in some kind.
Now it changes. The future of WB depends on us. Users, Developers and yes a good, clarified Definition of the Goals and Purposes of and for the Community.
I know exactly the lags and needs - no question. But did we ever had the chance to change?
Nope.
But we got it now.
And some of the main purposes is: keep it simple, provide help, involve new people, line them up, expand the usage, better up the code where possible.
There is a lot to do for everyone of us. But our behaviour will judge about the result. Not what we do like or think "it has to change", "I know better" or what so ever.
It's up to us all.
Not me, not you, not Matthias, not whosoever. For we are the community and we fought allready to many fights with "Blacksheeps" and "Know-Bests".
We are the Community - We are WebsiteBaker.
And I also know, that there is a lot of able and willing people out there.
And we shouldn't f#&$ck it up. We shouldn't.
Best Regards,
Stefek
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Hi everybody,
sorry not to be present in this discussion earlier....
My consideration on WB are quite simple and clear and I'd like to share them with all the community.
A nice project is bleeding to death!
As simple as it is!
I might be wrong but the 'boss' so far had pulled WB community's nose around... New WB3 is around the corner and will be..... whatever....
Now we get to know he also had the idea (legitimate one) to produce and mantain a 'commercial' version for his own 'company'!
Well, this is not really the best new for the community!
Do we really need to wait another bone to play with?
Better wake up!
A 'fresh' and 'new' approach is needed.
Call it 'fork', 'restructure' or 'rework' will not change the result if the all new project will sail the same sea with the same helmsman...
The present way to deal with 'WB' is way too absent!
Anyone is pulling and pushing in order to get something....
I was attracted by the project and it's easiness... but frustrated right away by the inability of WB to turn my efforts into improvements ...
These're reasons why now dev for myself like everybody else out there!
Wish I'd be wrong...
Stefano aka sharmpro
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Hello,
and Ruebenwurzel is still not present (and I asssume: not interesseted in the future of WB 2).
Ok here a short statement. First of all i follow all discussions, and reading all is because of my poor english knowledge often very hard to understand. So after pcwacht I'm the one who is longest here and one thing i have learned during this long time, it is not always the best to be active in every discussion. This means not, that I'm not interested. My interest in the future of WB is very big. But there where a lot of discussions in the past. A lot of good ideas are talked about but as soon as we gave those people access to change something and included them in leaderteams nothing happens and only doc and me had to do the work. Nor doc neither me want to have this rule.
So as Ryan now opens WB2 for the community (wich maybe is to late now) there is now a great chance to bring all the WB2 friends together in new teams with a new leadership. So let me say I'm open for every discussion and ideas. There are a few people wich offered leadership. And as soon as erpe told us about his team i will discuss with ryan about my favourites. And i say the same as doc. I don't need the leadership. I'm pretty shure that there are a few poeple here wich can do this job. So according to chio the first decission should be wich way WB should go, and the second decission should then be wich leader(s) make this. And both decissons should come from the community.
Matthias
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Hello Stefano.
I know you from the community as a helping hand.
You helped me with your Form-Module, and I have seen, that you are a real "Good Guy". Talented.
You said:
I was attracted by the project and it's easiness... but frustrated right away by the inability of WB to turn my efforts into improvements ...
I don't know exactly what happend.
But do you really think, that WB is bleeding to death? :-D
No way.
If this are the only considerations you have... I can't agree with you.
I also have some "Ideas" how to run a "fork". Everything needed to lance the marketing to create a new brand, new name, press and all kind of things needed in order to run the show.
But there is no reason to do this.
WB is now at a new position.
Ryan made a clear statement.
The Marketing Team has a Concept which never has been turned into reality because we had "to take patience".
Now we can open new doors.
You do not need to go and fork. Neither you nor JP.
So why don't you stay and try to communicate about your ideas, your considerations and conclusions?
I am open for changes.
WB needs all the power right now.
Keep the community together. Look what is really needed in order to improve the system.
You love WB. I love WB. The community loves WB.
As I allredy said to JP: I won't leave until I tried to support the official WB as much as I can.
It's true. Sometimes it's hard to go along with another peoples mind. But sometimes one has to accept the fact, that it is a teamwork.
New WB3 is around the corner and will be..... whatever....
Now we get to know he also had the idea (legitimate one) to produce and mantain a 'commercial' version for his own 'company'!
Well, this is not really the best new for the community!
Why it is not a good news for the community?
Maybe I am absolutly wrong, but if he will "commercialize" his new Product, so there is still something to get involved in.
But this won't take place in the next days, months. .. . ?
And WB2 can run side by side with WB3 as long as it is "comfortable" for both sides.
Until that time, there is no need to change the name, to fork, to leave or what so ever.
This is websitebakers home so far.
This is my official statement as the Marketing Team Leader.
Just to let you know.
I really understand you.
Best Regards,
Stefek
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Hello all,
First of all let me say I'm impressed by the immense response.
It's only been a few days since my first post and already we've had 26 replies and over 600 views!
I have addressed every single post with an individual response below...
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Reply#1@Stefek:
Thanks for your interesting statistics/graphs
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Reply#2@mr-fan/Reply#3@Stefek:
I agree the Help website is an incredibly important resource, and I hope it will only continue to grow.
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Reply#4@bupaje:
Please note, as I stated in my first post that WB will always be free. You will never have to pay, and WB will never switch. However, soon I am going to be selling a relicensed and slightly different product based off the same codebase. It will be provided as software as a service (i.e. it will be fully hosted). When it is all up-and-running, you are most welcome to check it out and move any WB sites to it if you wish. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not going to force WB users to move to this. I am simply providing another option for website owners.
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Reply#5@erpe:
Could you please list the 10 community members you are representing. I am interested in why you have decided to represent these people, rather than have them post individually.
I would be interested in talking with you further about becoming project administrator.
Basically, the way it would work is you would be elected to make any decisions regarding who is in what team, who has access to which WB admins (start/help/etc).
I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis.
If you are interested in continuing this, please let me know.
"Maybe it would lead to more success to take this thread to the German and other language forums too" - As I do not speak/read German, it is in my interest to have this thread remain an English-only thread.
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Reply#6@johnp:
"Though post like this
Quote
However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.
is by forth just one of the reasons there is problems within the Website baker community.
Because community members are bring up matters not team leaders or team members."
This is a matter of your opinion. I made the decision to open discussion, and the current team supports this. If the team as a whole wanted discussion to be open to the community, why wouldn't we? This discussion is pointless unless the whole community is open to it.
"I don't know, but I think some questions that are not being asked are ..Is it to late?"
In one of my emails to you, I mentioned that I hoped it wasn't too late. I am yet to receive a reply.
I look forward to the chance to communicate with you further on working together John. I would appreciate a reply to the emails I have sent.
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Reply#7@Vincent:
"Apparently there are disagreements between Ryan and some new developers"
I had the understanding that everything was ok with the communications between myself and those involved in the fork. I am a little suprised by johnp's reaction in his post.
"First of all I'd like to say that even though Ryan states to have failed as a leader, I don't blame him: he started WB as a young kid and managed to bring it as far as it is today, which I consider a truly remarkable achievement."
I appreciate the compliment. Starting this project when I was 15 was a big task, and finishing my education in 2006/2007 to put strain on my time. Now that I'm finished with education and working, I look forward to being able to spending more time on WB in the future. I also would like to say thank you for the compliments that followed this comment.
"Also I'm a little anxious that it may take a lot more time to have WB3 as rich and functional as 2.7 is right now, but we'll wait and see."
I agree. I think we won't see similar functionality until 3.1 (or potentially 3.2), which would be mid next year. 2.x definitely has a lead on 3.x, and it won't be until mid-2009 when 3.x catches up and matches the features of 2.x
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Reply#8@pcwacht:
"Fork, don't, splitting up active members is stupid and to me there is no reason to fork - there are no argueing , no direction you don't want to follow etc."
I completely agree, I think forking is just a waste of time/energy that would better be spent working together.
"WB2.8, why? What has been developped to make a new wb core? Nothing yet."
I can see many things happening with 2.x in the coming months if we can have our developers working together, rather than splitting and forking.
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Reply#9@chio:
"In my opinion the problem is not too few leadership, but too much. Too much, but incapably leadership. To be a good programmer doesnt mean to be a good leader."
An interesting take, maybe we should look at reducing the amount of people in leadership positions, and opening up tasks of general work to the community (such as making the help website a public wiki?).
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Reply#10@bupaje:
I will look into blender.. thanks for the suggestion ;)
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Reply#11@doc:
As with reply #10, thanks for the suggestion.
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Reply#12@erpe:
"I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for."
As I have mentioned several times, I do not have a whole heap of time for WB2. Since my first post it has only been a few days (in which time I have worked on 3.0alpha2). I am sorry that I am not as quick at replying as you would like. Please see my reply to your offer above (response to reply #5).
"So I hope, Ryan's offer was that serious as we took it.". I assure you it was.
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Reply#13@doc:
Would you be able to copy me in on your PM to erpe please Christian?
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Reply#14@cito:
"Hm, aren't the stated goals of Website baker to be simple and easy to use?"
Correct, that is why whoever is lead developer needs to maintain that fundemental goal, and ensure WB 2.x does not become bloated.
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Reply#15@Stefek:
"All we need is some tolerance and patience."
Yes, as the fundemental structure could change significantly I think everyone needs to understand this and be patient as change happens. A lot of people find it hard to accept change and avoid it. But it is a natural thing that has to happen for WB2 to move forward.
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Reply#17@Ralf (Berlin):
"@Stefek: That's exactly the problem: the leader is no longer interessted in his project but there is no need for a new leadership...
Don't you think, that there is something wrong with your statement? Wake up!"
I agree - leadership is something that must always exist. You cant just stear a boat out to sea and then have the driver go to sleep. A new driver must take charge to ensure the ship keeps going and does not crash. I hope you like my analogy :)
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Reply#18@BerndJM:
Yes I think the meaning of "leadership" could be a little confusing here (as I am about to address in my response to Reply#19).
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Reply#19@chio:
"Of course I talk about WebsiteBaker as the _whole thing_, not the core."
Yes, leadership needs to be taken for the WebsiteBaker project as a whole, including coordinating what happens with things not only in relation to development, but also things like documentation, who is moderating the forum, etc. Even though our development team could still be overhauled, that is a seperate issue. What I'm talking about in this post is potentially having someone else as project administrator, to do more than just code.
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Reply#20@doc:
Christian, thank you for making this statement and bringing clarity to the situation for the whole community to understand :)
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Reply#21@Stefek:
"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).
I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.
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Reply#22@Ralph(Berlin):
"This mean: we have shurely to talk about a team which is willed to continue the development of WB 2 and we will still need a leadership for this team."
Yes that is the purpose for this post :)
----------------------------------
Reply#23@Stefek:
"there is no reason to nominate a new leadership."
I disagree. The project needs someon to overlook everything related to what is happening. Someone to be in control and to "steer the ship" and ensure everything is moving forward in a positive manner, and that everyone is communicating properly and is "on the same page".
----------------------------------
Reply#24@sharmpro:
"Well, this is not really the best new for the community! "
I'm a little confused by this statement.. Do you mean "news" or "new"?
----------------------------------
Reply#25@ruebenwurzel:
"A lot of good ideas are talked about but as soon as we gave those people access to change something and included them in leaderteams nothing happens and only doc and me had to do the work"
Matthias, thank you for bringing this up. I should have pointed this out earlier. It is a problem than most of our community are probably not aware of - although we have a list of "teams" and "contributors", many of them are not active and one of my main motivations for this post is to involve the latest bunch of active users in contributing.
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Reply#26@Stefek:
"But do you really think, that WB is bleeding to death? grin
No way."
I agree. I think "bleeding to death" is an exaggeration.
"I also have some "Ideas" how to run a "fork"... there is no reason to do this. WB is now at a new position."
"So why don't you stay and try to communicate about your ideas, your considerations and conclusions?"
Stefek I very much appreciate your words, I hope they are convincing enough to keep users with our community including both JP and shampro.
"Why it is not a good news for the community?
Maybe I am absolutly wrong, but if he will "commercialize" his new Product, so there is still something to get involved in.
But this won't take place in the next days, months. .. . ?"
I just want to re-iterate again. WebsiteBaker 3 will be open source, all applications (Pages/Media) and addons will be open for development just like with WebsiteBaker 2. The only way my commercial project will be linked to WebsiteBaker 3 is in that it will be supporting the development of it.
"And WB2 can run side by side with WB3 as long as it is "comfortable" for both sides.
Until that time, there is no need to change the name, to fork, to leave or what so ever."
Agreed.
----------------------------------
Well hopefully I have covered everything as well as possible.
It seems there were many interpretations of my first post, and hopefully my responses above have cleared any uncertainty.
I look forward to these discussions continuing :)
Ryan
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@ryan
woow :-D.
and hopefully my responses above have cleared any uncertainty
I think so. Now for the upcoming new leaders team the way to go should be clear. Thanks.
Matthias
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Hi,
I hope I understand my English good in reading everything above. Yet a small reaction.
I hope that WB is not going the way like Mambo and Joomla. So 2 separate products. Two different versions are OK for me but not 2 competitive products.
Grtz,
Luc
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Ryan,
I would just like to reply that I have sent you replies and if needed I can resend. please have another look in your in box as I just sent you a email 17 hours ago and I am waiting on a reply from that.
JP
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Reply#21@Stefek:
"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).
I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.
Yepp, Ryans estimate on that topic is right :-)
Regards Christian
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Reply#21@Stefek:
"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).
I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.
Yepp, Ryans estimate on that topic is right :-)
Regards Christian
Never expected you to do everything alone, Christian :wink:
But knowing you as a leader for a long time, it's not easy to understand, that you want completly leave this position.
But it's your decision and I accept this, as I already told you in chat.
Regards,
Stefek
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But knowing you as a leader for a long time, it's not easy to understand, that you want completly leave this position.
But it's your decision and I accept this, as I already told you in chat.
Christian, just to clarify again for Stefek. You are not stepping down/out of the leaders team, are you?
@JP: I haven't received a single email from you since the 5th Nov. Maybe try sending through my web form (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact)?
@Luckyluke: The situation with Mambo/Joomla was a lot different, so what happened there is not happening here. ;)
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Hello Ryan.
You said:
Reply#1@Stefek:
Thanks for your interesting statistics/graphs
So, if you like Graphs, here is another one.
I talked to a lot of the active members in order to analyse the "Leadership is bad" generalization.
No "Bad Leadership"
The result and the final analysis shows, that this is just a generalization and not a fact.
But it is also true, that the developement team is not lined up correctly and a lot of efforts is ending up in frustrations.
I am NOT saying they are not doing a good job. It's not a lag of competency by individual coders. We have some real good coders. The dev-team is bringing up real WB like products ("Keep it simple").
Dev Team - No Leadership at all
But, unfortunatly, this section has NO leading at all. No "superior roadmap, objectives", and it is really hard for new coders to be intergrated into the official group.
What' going on?
So just let take a look at the illustration:
(http://www.designthings.de/downs/WB-anaysis.png)
The Product is good.
The Forum/Support is not bad.
Marketing (this team is very new and will bring up some new ideas in order to get WB more popular, the roadmap is done.)
Need of Change
So the final analysis shows, that there is just one section of the whole WebsiteBaker Project, which deserves more attention.
And this will be - as a team - the main target to be done.
I am very confident, that this will happen in the next time.
So, this is my opinion about "WebsiteBaker's future":
It looks promising.
People are interested in simplicity. The whole life is comlex enough. This is the simple power of WebsiteBaker.
So, to the Coders (official and "unofficial"), keep it simple, talk simple, find a simple way to communicate about your ideas. We do not need "democracy" for this is not a political project. :wink:
We need Ideas to keep it simple.
This is my opinion.
I am no coder.
I know you guys are thinking in another dimensions depending on your job.
You have new ideas how and where WebsiteBaker can be improved (simplified?).
Everyone of the people I talked to (over 90% of them) wants only the best for WebsiteBaker's future.
Good Luck.
I will follow this up and I will help as much as I can to make this a fact.
Regards,
Stefek
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Forking the project would be a waste. WB2 has limitations that I thought WB3 was going to address. While we all love WB2 it is time to move on to an improved version. I think the faster WB3 gets to a point where people can contribute to it that the forking discussion will subside. It would be a shame to fork WB2 becuase the more people helping WB3 the better it will be. I also feel that is is kind of pointless becuase by the time WB2 is forked off and a new version developed then WB3 will all ready be at development point equal to WB2 or beyond. Why work on outdated code and a core structure that was considered flawed and fixed in WB3?
Right now I think the best course of action is to get WB3 to a point where you feel comfortable launching a SVN for it. Once that is set up then I think some leadership re-ordering is in order.
It is obvious that the people leading WB are all coders. What you need is a project manager who would do limited coding. You need a project manager that knows the main code developers strengths and weakness and how long it takes them to code. That way tasks can be assigned appropriately.
Maybe this is how you guys are doing it but I get the feeling that everything is kind of "mish mash" right now.
However, I am not saying you need someone bossing you around. Just assigning tasks. The main code developers should be having weekly meetings to discuss features, scope, bugs, time restraints, tasks that need to be addressed, who would like to take on tasks. After that meeting then the Project Manager can assign any milestones and hand out coding tasks to the main code developers.
Also, I feel you should be utilizing the open source community more. I believe you have some talented coders on the forum that would rather not step up to help develop WB becuase they don't have time. I say that if you have a non essential feature/bug that will take more then 30minutes to hour to fix but not less then 5 hours then maybe you should put out a "Call for Coding Help" on the forum. List the problem and how you would like it fixed if anyone has a spare couple hours. That way you guys can concentrate on more important stuff and hope the community will step up to help you out. It might be a good way to cut out some of the small issue but time consuming coding from your schedules.
It seems the main issue is just with organization. Get someone who will minimally code but is good at managing. Ryan, I know this is your baby and I am not trying to say someone should replace you or boss you around. You obviously want WB3 to go in a certain direction but it seems you rather lock yourself up in a room and just start coding away. If you get a project manager then that is exactly what you will be able to do. Tell him/her where you want things to go and they can push the development team in the right direction by assigning tasks and making sure things get done. That way you don't have to worry about what others are doing and concentrate on coding like you want too.
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Once again i got "one step forward and two backward" into understanding the all issue:
Please help me out...
1. Ryan is going his way with WB3 (open source) but under his full controll (like it was for WB2) and the "commercial+features" one. These,and his new open approach to 'commercialize' some feature/service do not sounds good toward a new way to manage the WB3. IT SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WB2 WAS!
2. WB2 is left to the community, apparently
3. The community find out there's no 'Community' structure, nor decision-makers... a full 'democratic' anarchy.
4. The 'former' leader now is trying to appoint some 'volatile' titles to the herarchy he didn't let take place on WB2 for years
5. He still state: "I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis...." WHAT !!!???. SO FOR DAILY ISSUES NO PROBLEM, BUT WHAT ABOUT STRATEGIC ONES ??!!
6. Fork or not fork is not the issue: A RADICAL CHANGE IS !!! The 'programming/coding' can be an easy task but managing....
7. So far many users are concern about wasted energies.... All this pull-and-push, hide-and-seek is going to wast much more time, energies and wb user's willingness to take an active part into what will be next! (I'm one of those)
8. So, if the 'non programming/ non coding' issues will not be not solved very soon, either way... YES the WB2 project will continue to bleed to death missing chances to improve,to adapt to new media,technologies and opportunities. A slow but unavoidable death.
...
...
...
Regards,
Stefano a.k.a sharmpro
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Hi Stefano (also hi JohnP),
I agree with you, currently there is no much information in the open. Even not from me (for example). Personally I am trying to find out who is going where and who is in boat with whom. But since nobody gives any names, that is more than difficult to judge the differnet factions.
I am currently trying to formulate a structure into WB2 which does incorporate all factions if they are willing to work together. That is why I am in communication with all possible people. In the last days I have clocked over 8 h of phoneconversations and chats with various people including you. But again, nobody is giving anything propper to work with.
I currently favour a "3 people as leader" approach instead of 1 single person. The advantage of this is that you can:
a) distribute the work for different areas of WebsiteBaker
b) have a contact for the areas (e.g. infrastructure, development, community)
c) The decision process will always come to a decision (e.G. 3 - 0 or 2 - 1)
So this kind of setup enshures, that nobody will be "overworked" by handling everything but at the same time there will always be a contact available.
Example organisation see attached image
cheers
Klaus
[gelöscht durch Administrator]
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Hello Ryan,
I have been sending you emails via webmail and through your official contact form http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/) to reach you since before 21 of October.
I have sent you 2 emails in the past 24 hours along with a cc in the emails to Doc and Stefano and myself.
I have just sent you another request through http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/) again just in the past 5 minutes.
So stop making a mockery of me within this forum for your personal gain, as we both know you are getting the emails, as I am monitoring there delivery status
JP
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Hello!
JP just send me a PM and because
it is of interest for this Thread, I will answer here:
as a personal note how did you come up with your stats as if this was done just within the past couple days you didn't contact me about this..
Jp
Hello Mr. Parker
The "forkers" has been not interviewed.
You already left.
Fact is, that the main "Problem" lies in the developement and it's non existent leadership. That's WHY you (for example) decided to leave.
And yes it is also a problem of a lag of certainty about Ryans personal goals.
This issue is also building some "walls" for the Marketing Team and has been (for me, personally) the main "stoping factor" (my approach is allways to set "long term strategies").
@Ryan - You should provide some answers. Because you said:
I agree - leadership is something that must always exist. You cant just stear a boat out to sea and then have the driver go to sleep. A new driver must take charge to ensure the ship keeps going and does not crash. I hope you like my analogy
You should also give the rest of your "power" over to the community. Otherwise we really have a reason to think, that you are playing a game with all of us.
At the other hand I can accept, if you stay and lead or give "authority" to the Leadership. But you then should provide a "whishlist" how to run the show, the purpose of all of this and so fort.
You maybe should open a thread named "Ryans whishlist for WB 2 Developement and Marketing".
This would give certainty to everyone of us.
There is no problem then to run the show.
But at this time you say:
"Guys, I leave you alone - I don't need you so much for my future Plans, but you can stay and play (I only take my hand at the whole thing)."
I am just honest enough to tell you this.
There is a chance for WebsiteBaker 2 and 3 going Hand in Hand as a whole Project.
The Marketing efforts of the next time CAN also help you with your "Commercialized" Project. But only if you provide real and honest answers.
And this will help US to keep the Community alive and let it grow and prosper.
Yes, I like your analogy with the driver and the car.
I do like to have a competent driver.
But I don't like the idea of being in the position where "somewhere over the rainbow" is another "driver" with GPS access for my car who can stop and take control over it whenever he wants.
Democracy is a nice "word".
Without having the chance to make a choice of the "GPS Driver" it is not democracy. It's then a monarchy. ( I won't going so far to say it is then a dictatorship, because in this case you still have "orders" and "plans" - some chaotic ones, but you know the rules in some degree .)
I have no problem with monarchy or considering you as "Lord Ryan" :-D
But it's not good for the survival of your own goals (and you stil need a community for WB3).
So why don't you take the responsibility for the whole thing. Your "child" WebsiteBaker.
Is there something we should know?
Why this GPS fallback?
We need Answers and Decisions so we can judge about the value of our efforts.
Regards,
Stefek
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@ Stefek
I would like to thank you for the past post.
I agree with the following.
And as you stated
So why don't you take the responsibility for the whole thing. Your "child" WebsiteBaker.
Is there something we should know?
Why this GPS fallback?
We need Answers and Decisions so we can judge about the value of our efforts.
Yes! Step up to the plate and be a man Ryan and take responsibility in steed of trying to pass the buck.
If this is not your cup of tea anymore then let it go. move on to WB3 as you have done. Pass the Responsibility
to someone else (All not part) .
As i am going to take some of my own advise..
JP
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Hello community,
long time no see, just stepping in after escpro was telling me WB is splitting.
Just a few words from a "blacksheep" (and let's see if this post gets deleted again...):
I divided quite a long time with the official core team due several reasons.
(later more to this...)
In my opinion, WB2 is not that bad, but let's clarify some things:
wb2 core is not stable, not secure!
I've done a proof-of-concept at my favourite notary, which makes me allowed to say this statement without getting sued.
Reason for this is the neverending patchwork, but not rewriten base.
The leadership has failed in some really urgent things, BUT THEY MADE DECISIONS (which is good), instead of hoping for something (which some other members here prefer)...
Therefore i decided to go my way, go "commercial";
this means, i use WB2, but give commercial support.
(i have read a very interesting post in the past about sueing me by using the brand "WebsiteBaker"...)
Nevertheless i will continue using this name, because nobody can circumvent this (believe me, i've studied it a lot before going in this direction...)
The last 2 months, i made about 12.000 € with my projects "WebsiteBaker PLUS", "WebsiteBaker Hosting", 2x "WebsiteBaker Templates" and "WebsiteBaker Club", so my decision to go this way was pretty good :-P
(i can't speak for my team mate escpro, but i think, he won't work with me, if he won't earn enough money :wink: )
At the beginning, i thought about giving back some money to WB, but then i remembered how everything startet...
Where to donate? Who will get this money?
As you can see in the structure i built, there is help for free (which always should be!) and there is commercial support.
Companies like to know, how much a website will cost.
They don't want to use free software when they can't estimate how much it will cost get it running the way they need.
And the marketing team:
OMG, WHEN will be the day, this team will do it's job...
Funniest was the part, when i heard that they did a deal with allink;
sure, not bad, but it is better to do this on the own (like i did).
WB would earn A LOT, and all the CORE MEMBERS would be able to participate in earning money with WB, but unfortunately there is no TOGETHER, there is always MY BABY.
(even chio broke his promise about WebsiteBaker.at will always link to wb.org)
Guys, this is not only a matter of leadership, this is SERIOUSLY the road to death!
Let's look a bit to Joomla:
sure, not everything is going well there, also after splitting from Mambo;
but it works.
Sure, WB shouldn't get as messy as them (in case of the code lines), but it should be more "mature".
@chio, doc, all the others:
For example, wouldn't it be better if you could do what you like (coding, design, think about improvement), and even get paid for it?
Not argueing with others about CSS or other rubbish things?
I know, everybody has his own projects on the run, but why shouldn't the community be able to make a list, where everybody can enter what he can do/what he likes to do...?
Management/leading begins in thinking global, then realize in detail...
A leader must be able to code, to understand what the others are capable of doing.
A leader must be able to read/write in english and german fluently, because these two languages are the most visited parts in the forum.
A leader must have connections to other projects (i.e. FCKEditor).
And at least, he needs the nerve to say NO :-D
Well, just some thoughts from a black sheep (which was marked from the old leaders team, which is now very confused... :roll: )
PS:
sorry, i can't deny it:
For we are the community and we fought allready to many fights with "Blacksheeps" and "Know-Bests".
YES, Stefek, you are the last...
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The User has been banned in the past and has been banned under his "new" alias.
regards
Klaus
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The User has been banned in the past and has been banned under his "new" alias.
regards
Klaus
Well done, Klaus. :wink:
@Alex
You're unable to understand what a community is. You will never be able to understand me.
You are living a totally diffrent philosophy.
You can earn hunderds and tousands of dollars without having any fun with this, no community, no friends, no one who is gaining enything else but crap.
You remember the 50 Euro Template you wanted to sell me?
Seeing your trick in your "wannabe-portal" I've laughed to death.
Matthias and me made a full automatic Menu with SM2 which was much more accessible.
But you cant't share anything. So the only one who banned you is you yourself. You're the victim of your own mistakes.
If this is your choice - that's fine with me. You will never establish something of worth.
Alltghough you are right in some points, your intentions will never allow to make this happen.
You do not have the nuts to let people know who you are. Therefore you will never be anythig - for life is a community-effort.
So make money-money.
Stefek
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I thought I would chime in after reading some more of what is going on.
Ryan, you need to sit down and think long and hard about where you want WB to go. For WB to survive and this awesome community to stay intact then you will need to loosen your grip a little bit.
I am not saying you should say that this is a democracy and take votes on everything. With the state WB3 is in then nothing would get done! WB3 needs to get to state where it can be opened up to the community.
What should happen is that we should be a mix between a democracy and a monarchy. This is why I recommended assigning someone as a project manager. That way Ryan can concentrate on programing but at the same time tell the project manager... "I want this and that done." or, "I am going to work on this, have the other guys do whatever."
I basically picture a WB community where Ryan is not openly running things on the "outside" but "inside" whatever he says goes.
Or... Am I completely wrong in assuming people want to fork becuase of the community? Is it seriously that they like the WB2 core and don't want WB3? Or is it becuase of leadership?
To those that want to fork WB2 why not wait a couple months for WB3 to be released and then fork from WB3? It seems stupid to me to continue on with WB2 as the various difficulties maintaining the code are being addressed in WB3(or at least that is what I am to believe)
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Firstly...
I would just like to reply that I have sent you replies and if needed I can resend. please have another look in your in box as I just sent you a email 17 hours ago and I am waiting on a reply from that.
@JP: I haven't received a single email from you since the 5th Nov. Maybe try sending through my web form (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact)?
I have been sending you emails via webmail and through your official contact form http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/) to reach you since before 21 of October.
I have sent you 2 emails in the past 24 hours along with a cc in the emails to Doc and Stefano and myself.
I have just sent you another request through http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/) again just in the past 5 minutes.
So stop making a mockery of me within this forum for your personal gain, as we both know you are getting the emails, as I am monitoring there delivery status
John, I would like to publicly apologise for not replying to your emails.
Also, to anyone who sent me emails in the last few days... I have only just resolved a problem with my WB email account so I have replied to them all just now.
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Now, I would like to reply to the other posts the came after my last reply:
-----
Reply#34@Stefek:
- I dont think the leadership is bad, I just think it needs to be much much better ;)
- We do need more firm targets set for development.
- I do realise our community is generally happy with the WB 2.x product.
- Our forum support is good.
- I haven't been very involved with the marketing team, but I am happy that they are brainstorming and working on some good ideas.
----
Reply#35@centran:
"I think the faster WB3 gets to a point where people can contribute to it that the forking discussion will subside"
- I don't really agree with this. WB3 is a separate issue to WB2, and I don't really see how not being able to contribute to WB3 would encourage a fork of WB2.
"It would be a shame to fork WB2 becuase the more people helping WB3 the better it will be."
- Again, WB2 is separate so I don't see why if people were working on a WB2 why they couldn't work on WB3.
"Right now I think the best course of action is to get WB3 to a point where you feel comfortable launching a SVN for it. Once that is set up then I think some leadership re-ordering is in order."
- This will only happen with time, and probably won't happen until after the 3.0 stable release.
"It is obvious that the people leading WB are all coders. What you need is a project manager who would do limited coding. You need a project manager that knows the main code developers strengths and weakness and how long it takes them to code. That way tasks can be assigned appropriately."
- Why can I not be both a coder and manager? :S I dont have time to code or manage 2.x, but with 3.x I will both code and manage.
"However, I am not saying you need someone bossing you around. Just assigning tasks. "
- For the 2.x development, I do believe we need someone assigning tasks.
"It seems the main issue is just with organization."
- I have pointed this out from the started. Leadership and organisation is the main problem here.
"Ryan, I know this is your baby and I am not trying to say someone should replace you or boss you around."
- I do want someone to reply my position for WB2, and we have several good candidates to do so. However, with WB3 I do not see someone replacing my position for a long, long time.
"You obviously want WB3 to go in a certain direction but it seems you rather lock yourself up in a room and just start coding away."
- I am only "locking myself up in a room" to get 3.0 out the door, once this is done, I will take a more distanced stance on coding, and work more on management.
Centran I think you have it back to front. I would prefer manage rather than code, not the other way around. However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.
----
Reply#36@shampro:
"1. Ryan is going his way with WB3 (open source) but under his full controll (like it was for WB2) and the "commercial+features" one. These,and his new open approach to 'commercialize' some feature/service do not sounds good toward a new way to manage the WB3. IT SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WB2 WAS!.
I think once you see the full picture, you will understand why this will make things a lot better. It is only because you cannot possible see the big picture (as I haven't and can't really explain it at this time), that you would think it is even worse.
"2. WB2 is left to the community, apparently" - Yes
3. I am going to make sure we have the right people in place to be the "decision makers". This is my main point to this whole post - assigning new leadership within the community.
4. "The 'former' leader now is trying to appoint some 'volatile' titles to the herarchy he didn't let take place on WB2 for years"
- I have tried several times in the past to get more leadership in place. However no one has ever been willing to make the commitment required. If we had this many motivated community members in the past willing to step up, we would have had these conversations a long time ago.
"5. He still state: "I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis...." WHAT !!!???. SO FOR DAILY ISSUES NO PROBLEM, BUT WHAT ABOUT STRATEGIC ONES ??!!"
- No, I think you have misunderstand my intentions for this. I simply want access to ensure that if I had over control to someone and they do the wrong thing, I can revoke their powers and make sure that the community continues for the better. It will be impossible for me to know the real intentions of anyone I appoint. It is in my interest to still have access, because I would hate to see my "baby" taken down by malicious activity. I am not saying anyone is intending on harming the project, all I am saying is that for the protection of the community, I would like to still have access. I am 100% absolutely not going to try and kill the project myself for strategical reasons.
"6. Fork or not fork is not the issue: A RADICAL CHANGE IS !!! The 'programming/coding' can be an easy task but managing...."
- While it is not the only issue, it is one of the main factors at this point. Please don't disregard it as a non-issue.
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Reply#37@kweitzel:
Klaus I like your concept of having three leaders. If we could make this work it would be great (as long as all three are continually active).
The only problem is if one person stopped being active, the two would have to either be held back by the 3rd, or make decisions without them (which defeats the purpose).
In terms of putting names to people, maybe I should start opening nominations so that people can nominate themselves for positions?
That way we get to see exactly who would like to be exactly what..
----
Reply#39@Stefek:
"And yes it is also a problem of a lag of certainty about Ryans personal goals."
- I hope I have already addressed these in this post. If not, please feel free to question me further on what my goals are.
"You should also give the rest of your "power" over to the community. Otherwise we really have a reason to think, that you are playing a game with all of us."
- I have stated many times already, I would like someone(s) to step into the position of "power", which would effectively hand the power over to the community. I am not trying to play games. If you feel this way please tell me how I can change that.
"you then should provide a "whishlist" how to run the show, the purpose of all of this and so fort."
- I have already detailed what I'd like to see happen with 2.8.x, besides that, I don't mind where things go in terms of marketing/community structure for WB2.
"There is a chance for WebsiteBaker 2 and 3 going Hand in Hand as a whole Project."
- Absolutely. 2.x and 3.x will mutually benefit each other in terms of marketing, as it is a common name.
With regards to democracy/monarchy. For 2.x, I am happy for the yet-to-be elected leaders to make the decisions. For 3.x, I will make the decisions. In both situations however, it is very important to poll the community on what the community wants, and then take this into consideration when making final decisions.
----
In reply to both #39@Stefek and #40@Johnp
You have said that I need to step up and take responsibility. I thought when I said "I accept for responsibility for the poor leadership over the last few years." that I made it clear I was accepting responsibility for the current situation. Obviously I haven't conveyed my message clearly enough. What I am trying to do with this post is finally take some sort of action with improving leadership and development for the benefit of the community as a whole.
Comments like "Step up to the plate and be a man Ryan" I find to be unnecessary and derogatory, considering my age and all.
----
Reply#42@kweitzel:
This user contacted me directly complaining that he was banned and copied me in on his post (above). Based on what I have read from this post, I can see why. His attitude is definitely not in the right spirit of Open Source.
----
Reply#43@Stefek:
I agree it appears Alex is living a different philosophy than the majority of us.
----
Reply#44@centran:
"Ryan, you need to sit down and think long and hard about where you want WB to go. For WB to survive and this awesome community to stay intact then you will need to loosen your grip a little bit."
- One option I have considered is branding WB3 as a different name. It is not the same product, and the way in which I intend to run the community is different. By doing this it would allow those passionate about WB2 to continue developing it and running the community around it like it has been run. The WB2 could have major changes to the core and a version 3.x could come as a result of it. It's just an idea so please nobody overreact to this suggestion! I would be interested to hear everyones thoughts on me branding WB3 as a different project altogether, and thus allowing WB to continue along the path it naturally would follow.
"To those that want to fork WB2 why not wait a couple months for WB3 to be released and then fork from WB3? It seems stupid to me to continue on with WB2 as the various difficulties maintaining the code are being addressed in WB3(or at least that is what I am to believe)"
- WB2 still has life in it. In case you have missed what I already said, it will be some time before WB3 will catch up to 2.x in terms of features (maybe mid next year?). Therefore, I believe that it is worth continuing to develop a 2.8.x version.
----
If anyone feels that I have left anything out or has any further questions please feel free to ask them.
I think that it has come to a point where we should have nominations for positions in a new team structure. Once those positions have be applied for, we can then make a decision on who will best fill it. I am very keen to see what JohnP can do, as he has been very open and honest about what he would like to do for the community.
Also, I hope that we can get a resolve on the current situation in a timely manner ;)
-
Hello,
However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.
I think this is the wrong intention. As a manager you have to let other people do the coding, you have to trust their skills. Of course, you should have convinced yourself of their abilitites. It may be that the first release of WB3 can be published quicker than with coordinating other people's tasks, but the question is: is the quality of the product also better?
Besides as a manager you should have very good conversation skills, but like you say, you are not willed to coordinate several people to do the first release of WB3. How do you want to make it in the future? Maybe you are not willed to coordinate for the second, third etc. release?
I do not want to blame you, but like other people said in this thread, you should perhaps think about the point, if you really want to manage and if you really think you can handle it. Being a coder in a project is no shame, no, it is an important part in the development of a software system.
Now I want to come to an important point: Coding is not the most important part in developing a software system. I do not know how WB was developed, but were modeling languages used? Have the models been checked, whether they are correct? Was it considered which people may use WB? Which impacts this should have on the functional and the qualitative aspects of WB? Was it considered which script/programming languages would fit the needs best or were they chosen, because they were the only known by the coder/coders? Was it considered how to make the product known by the people?
This are some exemplary questions, but questions which are fundamental for professional software development. Many of you guys have the intention to make WB a long-living project, but I think with the lack of real professional development effort, this includes the need for people which have skills in the important parts of software engineering, this will fail. I believe that one major problem in involving people which have the skills is, there is no money to pay them. To make a professional open source project needs the same eager and time than to make a commercial product, considered you want to be able to compete with the professional software. Therefore the people involved have to work hard and (even) full-time and they have to eat and drink. How should they do it without money?
Thus, to make it happen, there must be more effort, more professionality to earn money in other ways, if you want WB to be open source. This, I think, is also a problem of this project.
Let me say again: I do not want to blame the people involved in this project, no, I really like this project. I only want to show that more professionality is important. Open source projects, which want to survive in the business, have to be put forward with the same professionality like other commercial projects.
Best regards,
Seppel
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Seppel,
Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.
I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.
Now, with regards to managing a team of developers for future WB3 development - I assure you I can handle it. The main reason why I wanted to develop 3.0 myself was that I wanted the framework to be done in a specific way that I felt was just easier to do myself. Now that the ground work has been put in, i'm not far away from bringing other people on board to accelerate the speed of development ;)
Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.
Ryan
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Seppel,
Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.
I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.
...
...
Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.
Ryan
I Ryan,
i can assure nobody is trying to rate you and your job. What you want to develop, the for that makes YOU more confortable, your OO experience, the systems you know... WHO CARES!?.
Dont tell me there's nobody like you......
Grow up.
Stefano
-
I'm getting a little worried about this discussion. I experienced both Sharmpro and Johnp as very helpful and alert forum members over the past months.
But in this thread you seem like different persons!
Your tone of voice is quite unpleasant I must say. Both of you seem very exited all the time, and frankly speaking I find you insulting. Although both of you obviously are no native English speakers (nor am I), you normally communicate clearly. But in this thread anger makes both of your writings not only offensive, but often it is almost impossible to understand what you are exactly trying to say.
I think we all should acknowledge that everyone in this community wants the best for all of us, so there is no need be mistrustful as you are.
Personally I'd leave the community if I suspected the team leaders of personal benefits in stead of trying to do what's best for all of us. Mind you, I hope both of you stay committed, but I surely hope you find a more elegant way of expressing your frustrations.
Vincent
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I'm getting a little worried about this discussion. I experienced both Sharmpro and Johnp as very helpful and alert forum members over the past months.
But in this thread you seem like different persons!
Your tone of voice is quite unpleasant I must say. Both of you seem very exited all the time, and frankly speaking I find you insulting. Although both of you obviously are no native English speakers (nor am I), you normally communicate clearly. But in this thread anger makes both of your writings not only offensive, but often it is almost impossible to understand what you are exactly trying to say.
.........
Vincent
I concur what Vincent said here.
I’m concerned of the way of the conversation here.
Everybody here is doing a hard job. So, stop blaming each other.
I think we are going the wrong direction in discussions.
We all have to move forward.
Nobody has to be angry here. WB 2 is a very good product and if there are people in the community who wants to make WB 2 even better, that’s a good thing.
And I’m sure WB 3 will be much better because it’s a new design, technology etc. But I will tell more after the first release.
I shouldn’t post here a lot because I’m new in this community.
I hope you don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to point a finger at anybody. I love you all ;-)
Grtz,
Luc
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Long time i say nothing ....
but i thing, this is the wrong way.
@Ryan: I thing, it's too late to do this how you want to do this. I like OpenSource, but i know how it should be... And here the community is splitet.
@kweitzel, rueberwurzel and so on: Alex is not so bad, all will think, he has his own head, his direction and sometime he will shoot too fast, but i think, WB will not stand here, without him. And in every good team i know, 1 people have to be a bad guy to get fast forward.
@LSW: think about come back, i know, you will make money, and you know me, for me this or the fork is a system to play.
@all: i know about more than 30 people who have gone and only leech WB and they have much nice features...
rgds.
J
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Hello LuckyLuke.
That's cool what you say.
Has nothing to do with "how long in the community".
Look at LSW, he was for a long time in the community and left nothing but trouble & crap.
So intentions are more important.
@Vincent
Thank fo your comment
@Sharmpro - come on. That's not the way to handle conversations. I know it's a hard time for some people, but keep your maners.
@Ryan
Thank you for answering the most of my questions.
It was good if you change the name. For both - WebsiteBaker and your new Product.
I have some questions left, but I am very busy with my own business tonight.
Best Regards,
Stefek
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@Vincent
I would like to know how you think my voice in this thread is insulting, offensive or unpleasant?
It was not choice to start this thread, it was Ryan's! After I emailed Ryan when a post
Regarding our intention to fork from Sharmpro was moved and I got in touch with
Ryan to get his permission to create a thread under
WebsiteBaker Development
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11671.0.html (https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11671.0.html)
in regards to a fork edition nothing more.
And as a reply to
I think we all should acknowledge that everyone in this community wants the best for all of us, so there is no need be mistrustful as you are.
I have only tried to be as fair and as pleasant as I can. I can't see how one nor you could
come to a conclusion that I might be insulting, offensive or unpleasant and further more
what could I have said that could bring you to such a conclusion? The Truth!
I am finding your last post to this thread not throughly though out and you probably did not
completely read through everything and for my English it's just fine.
Further more I would like to add to this I have done everything I could to get Ryan and I
to come to some kind of middle ground and it is hard to do when one fines getting in
touch with him is almost impossible
JP
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@everybody:
Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that.
Let me state some facts here that I was invited to share in a closed forum environment, which I will not do:
1) The Servers and different webspaces are located with people who are dedicated to
Website baker and not any faction or fork candidate
2) From what I gather this part of the infrastructure will stay dedicated to WebsiteBaker
And now my thoughts about the future:
As you have all seen my proposed Organization for the WebsiteBaker Community I will elaborate a bit more on that:
The should be leaders team which consists of 3 people. My proposed areas are "Community", "Development" and "Infrastructure / Operation"
- Community
The Community Team needs to cover all the work which has to do with community work (e.g. Forum, User meetings). Additionally that Team should cover Marketing and Press.
- Development
In the Development Team all work regarding the development of WebsiteBaker, split into core and core add-ons, as well as template- and add-on testing to ensure the quality of the official released materials. Also programming work for the different WebsiteBaker Sites should be covered there.
- Infrastructure
I bet you guessed it already, the Servers, Webspace and everything will be managed within the Infrastructure Team. They will do all the administration work. This team will also propose changes to the server and software infrastructure.
Now a couple of the tasks at hand here will require cross team work, which is something that will be ensured by the leaders. The leaders will also jointly decide on the direction (short and long term) and major changes. They will delegate some of the work required for fact finding to team members. The final decision on everything will lie in the hands of the leaders team ant not anybody else!
Now obviously you ask yourself how the community comes into action here ... i would expect the community to make suggestions to either the team members or the leaders team, whom will then have to act on this. As you can imagine suggestions like "I want this one to be chucked out" will be dismissed entirely.
Suggestion we do expect are:
- External Scritps to be included
- Marketing Operations
- User Meetings
- New functions to be created
- Team member proposals
Also finished code (bugfixes, new functons, etc.) should be suggested for inclusion.
Please, let us all work on this instead of this bitching around ...
cheers
Klaus
PS: please excuse my abuse of code and qoute for highlighting ... ;-)
-
I owe an apologize to the one who felt offended by my last post.
Just take the 'offensive' tone away and read carefully.
Regards,
Stefano aka sharmpro
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Just in response to the most recent replies:
-----
@ Vincent & Luckyluke:
I agree. We have been busy pointing fingers rather than focusing on the task at hand.
------
@Stefek:
"It was good if you change the name. For both - WebsiteBaker and your new Product."
- I will talk about this in my next post..
------
@johnp:
"Further more I would like to add to this I have done everything I could to get Ryan and I
to come to some kind of middle ground and it is hard to do when one fines getting in
touch with him is almost impossible"
- What troubles are you having in contacting me? Yes my PM is disabled in the forum, but my signature contains a very clear way to contact me which (now) works ;) If you are having troubles contacting me please let me know because I'd like to fix this.
------
@kweitzel:
"Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that."
- Klaus, you are completely right, we need to focus on the main point here.
I think you concept of three teams could work, and it would be interesting to establish a list of who the potential team members could be. Maybe this is the next step?
-
Ok, here is my latest idea that could potential save a lot of headache's. I did mention this briefly in one of my replies earlier to Stefek. Remember, this is only an idea and it is not definitely going ahead....
PlatformRAD is the name of my product that will be my commercial, fully hosted/"software as a service" (SaaS) solution. The website for this product/service is platformrad.com
WebsiteBaker 3 could instead be released as PlatformRAD Open Source edition (OSE). I would run the community from platformrad.org which would consist of a forum/bug tracker/subversion/wiki, similar to the current WB portal.
WebsiteBaker 2.x would stay at WebsiteBaker.org, and if the community decides to rewrite the core of WB2 they could and then release it as WB3.
The motivation for doing this is that WB3, as it currently stands, is a completely different product to WB2. I intend to run things slightly differently, and therefore it doesn't seem to fit in well with the natural direction the WebsiteBaker project is heading (which is much more open).
The current WebsiteBaker project would then be able to progress without restrictions on what I currently want for WB3/PlatformRAD.
I don't really see to much disadvantage in doing this other than it could potentially split the community. However, PlatfromRAD open source edition (OSE) would be a completely different product to WebsiteBaker (2.x and future versions) so I don't see this as too much of an issue.
Please let me know what you think of this idea.
-
WebsiteBaker 3 could instead be released as PlatformRAD Open Source edition (OSE).
...
WebsiteBaker 2.x would stay at WebsiteBaker.org, and if the community decides to rewrite the core of WB2 they could and then release it as WB3.
...
The current WebsiteBaker project would then be able to progress without restrictions ...
Hello Ryan. This is a great idea, and being for several years in Marketing/Advertisement Business I see that this will be the best solution for your new product.
I don't really see to much disadvantage in doing this other than it could potentially split the community. However, PlatfromRAD open source edition (OSE) would be a completely different product to WebsiteBaker (2.x and future versions) so I don't see this as too much of an issue.
If you will do this, I can assure you, that the community as it now exists will follow up your future progress.
I also think, that we will create more interest - involve new people into this project - for WebsiteBaker and no one is going to "hide the roots". Thus more people will know about your new project via this forum.
@kweitzel:
"Might I remind you that we are talking about the furture of this project and NOT about the personal behaviour of some people? frankly spoken, I don't see much of that."
- Klaus, you are completely right, we need to focus on the main point here.
I think your concept of three teams could work, and it would be interesting to establish a list of who the potential team members could be. Maybe this is the next step?
Because he is sleeping, I want to give you a reply on this.
One of the persons really interested in a Leading Position (as you maybe assumed) is me.
I aim to take responsibility into the Marketing of WebsiteBaker (primarily the Brand of WebsiteBaker and External Public Relation(ships))
This is only one of the Sections where we will need Leaders for.
I hope we can tell more in the next days.
Thank you for helping us in this times, so we can change for the better.
(And this discussion really brought light into the situation.)
I also like to thank Matthias, Christian and all the "old crew" - they brought a great product last February.
I hope the best for the Development Team and I am very curious about the next official WebsiteBaker Release.
We owe you.
Regards,
Stefek
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Hi Stefek,
As your response to my idea is the only one, I assume that everyone else agrees with your response and supports my idea. I'll give it another few hours but I'm pretty sure on this decision for PlatformRAD.org
Ryan
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I think that is a good idea Ryan but only if people are going to continue to develop WB2 for a long time. However, if the idea was to keep WB2 going for a little while longer(2.8) and then move on to WB3 I do not think it is a good idea.
Will the WB2 core be around and actively developed in 2+ years or would have people moved on to WB3? I think people would move on to WB3 since the core is supposed to be better and easier to deal with. In that case then I recommend a tag line for the new product such as "PlatformRAD complete hosting featuring WebsiteBaker".... but people seem to be pretty set on continuing with WB2 so two complete products might be the way to go.
Those people who want to split off really need to be thinking about this and deciding. I am not one of those people. Maybe a new topic with a poll should be started and only those interested in continuing with WB2 should vote and discuss.
-
Mainly (but not only) @centran:
I think it's a good decision from Ryan to give the "WB3-baby" a new name because:
If he name it WB3 there will be a very short room left for WB2.x
There will be published a 2.8 - 2.9 - and with a 2.999999999 the maximum will be reached.
So, with this decision for a new name for his "going further WB Version" the WB2 fans have the chance to look a little bit more in the future, a perspective which was a little bit shortened with the official announcement of "WB3". And made more or less rumor in the community.
So I think if Ryan give his new bae a new name the street for WB2... will be really free to make it's way.
Regards Bernd
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@Ryan
I think it's the best solution to give your new child a new name and a own platform 8-)
It is also my firm conviction that WebsiteBaker will be developed ahead by community and will always keep in tradition.
So let's talk briefly about organisation/teams and then roll up our sleeves and continue the WebsiteBaker story...
Regards
Ralf
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Hello,
the decision to name your new CMS other then WebsiteBaker was the only chance for WebsiteBaker to have a future. And I'm pretty shure it will have a long future. There are a lot of guys here wich are very interested in bringing WB to another level. Keep the basics, with easy to use for the users, but in the backgound with rewritten code. We now have the chance to make a WB 2.8 (based on 2.7 only with a few features and a new layout) and parallel develop a own WB3.
So, as Ralf said, let us make targets and form teams wich can implement these targets.
Matthias
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I agree completly with everyone who has spoken in the last few hours.
BerndJM
So, with this decision for a new name for his "going further WB Version" the WB2 fans have the chance to look a little bit more in the future, a perspective which was a little bit shortened with the official announcement of "WB3". And made more or less rumor in the community.
"made more or less rumor in the community" - That's abolutley right.
Ralf (Berlin)
I think it's the best solution to give your new child a new name and a own platform 8-)
It is also my firm conviction that WebsiteBaker will be developed ahead by community and will always keep in tradition.
Yes - that's right.
Matthias
We now have the chance to make a WB 2.8 (based on 2.7 only with a few features and a new layout) and parallel develop a own WB3.
So, as Ralf said, let us make targets and form teams wich can implement these targets.
Absolutley agree Matthias.
As I told - again and again - it is not the entire project which has dificulities / problems.
And now with this certainty Ryan gives to the community we will be able to bring order into this.
So we won't need to change this things which allready worked fine.
Once this point (https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11680.msg70829.html#msg70829) is handled we can make fast progress.
Regards,
Stefek
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Ok guys, based on the positive feedback, I am definitely going ahead with the idea. WB3 will be no more, instead it will be PlatformRAD 1.0 (Open Source Edition). Further information will be available at platformrad.org in the coming days. :wink:
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That's great News, Ryan.
Really.
I will have additional Questions for you depending on the WebsiteBaker Project.
I will send you a short E-Mail in the next few days.
Best Regards,
Stefek
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Hi all,
I have made a few postings to explain to users following different threads what exactly is going on.
Here is the post (text copied from WebsiteBaker.org/3) I made in the WB3 board:
https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11774.0.html
Now that has been sorted, it should now become easier (hopefully) organising new positions and structures. :)
Ryan
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I'm using WB only for a temporary and very limited project of my own because of the code module and the overall handling of WB which isn't overcrowded with things admins often don't need. I think for a single user or a small group of people who are working on the same target this CMS is fantastic. And the documentation is great too, easy to understand and gives ideas about the possibilities. Anyway, everyone here knows what i mean because thats the reason why we all are here.
But i have to admit that i'm looking into the forum only now and then, because it looks in a couple of cases a bit chaotic to me. Sometimes i'm wondering if all Mods here are working as a structured team FOR the community, or not (example: i didn't understand the appearence of WebsiteBaker Template Contest World Wide 08 (https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11029.0.html) without a well placed announcement about it before ("we are thinking about... how's about, anyone interested?").. no, Bang! Here's the contest. But if there should be such an announcement, i couldn't find it because it seems to be well hidden). Well, i don't want dig too deep, but i wanted to mention that the forum is the point i don't like very much from the whole WB project.
Two days ago i visited after a longer break again, looking for news about WB3 (Any news about it? / Whats new in general?) and then i saw the Latest News (http://www.WebsiteBaker.org/3/) from Ryan and started to read this thread here. First i though "Darn, not good".. Two days later i'm still unhappy with this "new way" and still think "Darn, not good".
Splitting power finally don't create more power, but people still want to figure this out by their own experience. Walk that way, but as a off time WB user i'm not happy with that.
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Hi Darn, hi all
thanks a lot for your comments on this. You are right, there has not been much in terms of communication going on. We are moving forward with WebsiteBaker and indeed it is a good move of Ryan to call his new project something else, although I am quite interested in the new project as well!
There is a group of dedicated people who are working on bringing WebsiteBaker as a community project forward and things like this contest you refer to will be handled differently in the future (top down instead of bottom up) ... The aim is to have the working structure in place latest by end of the year and then there can be further planning ahead.
@all: I know there are a lot of people around willing to contribute one way or the other. Please do bear a bit with us and we all will be able to move forward with WebsiteBaker! If you are willing to contribute, please do send Ryan or me a message.
cheers
Klaus
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Hi,
I'm using WB since more than a year and think, it is a very good CMS.
Now, I would like to support the further development of WB as muuch as I can. That means, I'm not a programmer but I have a lot of experience in documentation and user point of view. I used to run customer support division of a global IT player during my receent years in business.
In the meanntime I am retired, have lots of time and could easily spend a siggnificant amouunt of it on WB!
Let me know, whhether I can be of any help!
Armin
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Hi,
I really don't know why Ryan is "leaving" with a "new" project.
Originally he developed WB 3, I think WB is its own brand. Now he changes the name and went away from this only to get out of this stupid discussion (?).
But of course he still developing WB3, just with another name. So expect, when Ryan is ready all the WB using people will switch to his new platform, because everybody knows it is truly WB3.
WB is really easy to use and easy to extend, but it is still not the best in engineering. 2.8+ makes no sense to me until it's core is not up2date. I think it's okay like it is. There only have to be bug fixes. All the energy you guys have should be concentrated on WB3.
Wait until Ryan has his new platform ready and then jump on board there. Or go on thinking making your own WB3. It's okay that he wants to develop the core alone. I'm sure he will make it. While that you could clean up this webiste and make the documentation(for 2.7) something that could be called documentation.
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Hi Adrian2k7,
nice comments there ... why don't you get in contact with ruebenwurzel or me to help out on the documentation side of things?
cheers
Klaus
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Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread... I wish all the best to Ryan in his new endeavor.
That said, as an end-user leading smaller projects mainly in the non-for-profit and educational sectors, I will be definitely sticking with WB, regardless of the direction development might take, as long as it remains the most user-friendly CMS available. WB's core is not a problem from my point of view... but the availability of extensions (modules, themes, etc) and resources to code them is. For example, I still cannot for the life of me understand how WB does not have its own forum module. I think WB has to integrate more "Web 2.0" functionality to remain relevant against other solutions.
I can only imagine how hard it can be to juggle between "featuritis" and "WB needs to be so easy my braindead sister can manage her web site on her own". WB is the closest to achieving this balance, while running under so-called "weak" leadership. Damn, if all my projects worked as well as WB development has, my boss would call me a genius...
Cheers.
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Hi, cant believe I missed this thread either, got a few things on my mind.
As the WB2 core is getting older its enevitable that it needs to be updated using newer, more effishient and optimized technologies to meet tomorrows demand. Some has stated that WB2 is not stable and secure, that its an ongoing project of pachwork. This frightens me as we use WB as a base to build custermer solutions upon. To cast away Ryans efforts is a bad choise, this is the man with the right visions.
It it would be any forking, I think it should be WB 2.8 that would turn into something else and the PlatformRAD would be WB3.
A successfull app is for me:
- An advaced core (fast, stable, secure, etc).
- Simple and beautiful admin that anyone can use with hidden more powerful administration capabilities.
- Lots of possibilities when making templates corporating features
- Lots of configurable mods in every category (news, media gallery, download gallery, forum etc)
- As little demands as possible to PHP and MySQL configurations (safe_mode etc.)
- Easy to install (or hard at first till you know the trick)
- ..and maybe a few obvious and less obvious things..
Any way, as WB is a great app I think the name is somewhat no good. What about something more corporate like PlatformRAD? I agree with those who think its hard to know what is going on in the community. Contests, great modules and snippets, great code who solves problems in the template, templates, reporting bugs, new announcements..its all hidden somehow in this forum. The AMASP project is great but why not incorporate it in the .org site?
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Just a little background; I have been helping out with a substantial not-for-profit project where we provide website hosting to member organisations. By default we configure sub-domains with WordPress. At the time it was the best solution for a number of reasons (and probably is still very good). However, in the interim I have discovered WebsiteBaker and think it is much easier to use. Our needs are primarily for a CMS NOT for a blog that can be used as a CMS. WB also looks much easier for folks with little IT experience to maintain.
I am also looking at expanding my time into developing and supporting websites for local small businesses.
I have also contemplated offering my services as a learning PHP coder and (like another correspondent) as a competent documenter.
Now this brings me to this discussion. I have read all the inputs and I must say I am confused. I guess the basic question is why should I commit valuable time to WB given that its future seems to be so uncertain. Issues like these worry me:
- What's going to happen to the development of the current version?
- Will there be a version 2.8, 2.9, etc. etc.?
- More importantly, will there be a version 3.x and if there is what's the over-lap with Ryan's new project?
- With Ryan moving on; who owns the intelectual property in WB?
- What happens to all the WB effort when Ryan gets his new product ready? Do we all just dump effort on WB and move across? What do we do for our customers (paying and non-paying)?
None of these sorts of issues have been answered in this thread so far.
I'm confused!
Regards,
Peter :| and :?
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Wow, this is really quite shocking. I've been a WB user for several years now. Unfortunately, I've only been able to contribute in a very limited way. I have contributed to the documentation, and ported an open source template.... that's about it. But my experience in contirbuting was overall very positive. I felt like the team was functioning and responding to me and gave me guidance, especially ruebenwurtzel and doc. I also couldn't image the WB forums without pcwacht. You guys have made this community what it is.
So the shocking thing was to come here today and read this entire post and see that most of the somewhat bitter replies were made by people who have not been around very long. We've all been waiting for WB3 for a long time... sure. But none of us would be here at all if Ryan hadn't had a great idea and ran with it.
Personally, I will be checking both platformRAD and wb for the next few months to figure out which new developments will be more beneficial to me in the long-run. I have a suspicion that it will be platformRAD, because despite his relative absense, Ryan's vision for a strong and reliable CMS is what brought us all here in the first place.
We'll see how it goes from here on out...
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Have to admit that this discussion doesn't thrill me one bit. Here I was hoping for the focus being on everyone improving the core product and - just as important - developing new modules to extend and improve the overall functionality and usefulness of WB.
Instead, I see the plan to divide resources on two separate projects. This uncertainly means that the WB versions may continue to be a nice product for hobbyists, but for offering to clients I think it means a move to CMS Made Simple, Wordpress or a similar more stable product, which I am already doing as a result of this discussion.
Best of luck guys, just wish it could have been worked out better.
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My credentials:
I've used WB for a few years now and love its simplicity.
I've paid to have some cool modules developed that give WB more commercial appeal for a corporate marketing department like cloning pages for the purpose of testing different advertising landing pages and a much more powerful forms modules to give depts true communication capabilities. We of coursed released those to the community.
Resume
I am confused about where this is going. My dream for WB would be for it to truly focus on becoming a marketing tool for corporations and building an open source services/support based business model around it. Having run marketing for technology and other types of companies for 23 , I can see the need. We could have a fantastic platform and then build a community of designers, marketers, and developers around it all profiting by helping companies successfully market themselves on the web and develop tools to help them run their businesses. There is incredible demand for this even in these difficult times.
What I see now is a lack of vision and leadership for either project. I don't know where they are going, how they will benefit me the "customer" and what they want me to do to help. Where are these projects going? As developers, I am concerned about the "business" focus of those developing the project. Ultimately the web for businesses is a marketing tool. If that is not part of either vision, then I may need to think about something else entirely for WB or use another simple to use platform like Word Press.
I understand that is a lot to digest, but I really think someone needs to step up and explain how we got here and where we are going. I am happy to devote time and money to making this better, but I am not going to follow anyone down a silly strategic or vindictive path.
Who can explain?
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I am confused about where this is going.
...
What I see now is a lack of vision and leadership for either project. I don't know where they are going, how they will benefit me the "customer" and what they want me to do to help. Where are these projects going?
...
I understand that is a lot to digest, but I really think someone needs to step up and explain how we got here and where we are going. I am happy to devote time and money to making this better, but I am not going to follow anyone down a silly strategic or vindictive path.
Who can explain?
Hello Bradnickel,
sorry for answering that late, but I do.
It's hard to say where all this is going because there is no annoncement done for this.
Since three months there is no Leadership in sight, but I don't think that there is no vision at all.
I think that threre are few different points of view - mostly the developers have to make decisions how to work with each other.
But you must understand, that at this moment there is some confusion caused by the entire situation: Ryan has for long time worked as developer not being involved in "active leading". Now he seems to disapear completly from the WebsiteBaker Project.
So now there is - for the Developers - the time to see what they want to achieve with WebsiteBaker (and they are still active and they have a lot of ideas).
And for the Leading Structure - there is of course a need to clean up the "lines" (or to establish them) so they will result in Product, Documantation, Marketing, Usage, Forum, Support.
Let us see in the next time. The New Year is comming.
I am sure, that WebsiteBaker will make it's way.
Just see the released Modules in the last time, so you will know what I am talking about.
WebsiteBaker is still alive.
Best Regards and all the best for 2009!
Stefek
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Obviously I am new here but think it is a shame that things are going this way.
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Hello TR1.
I (...) think it is a shame that things are going this way.
It's not the best situation.
But it is in the nature of life: people have new interests when the time progresses.
New projecs new challenges.
So why look back and blame people for their own decisions?
Has no advantages.
Let us look ahead.
Let us look at what we have (great CMS) and make the best out in 2009.
Best Regards,
Stefek
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Hi TR1 ... then why don't you think in the lines of: "What can I do to help WebsiteBaker"? There is a lot that you could do I bet ...
cheers
Klaus
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... then why don't you think in the lines of: "What can I do to help WebsiteBaker"? There is a lot that you could do I bet ...
Klaus,
I'm sure there is things that we could do but the total and utter lack of leadership and direction make it difficult.
From my position (down here in sunny Batemans Bay Australia, I don't have the faintest idea what's happening and what assistance people want. Are there moves to get WB going again? Is there to be a community committee? What do you want from us?
I agree with previous comments about the basic soundness and quality of WB so lets move forward and keep it alive. Please someone tell us what's happening.
Regards,
Peter
Regards,
Peter
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Hello,
just a short information.
We have built a dev team and are at the moment in internal discussions about common versions of WB. As soon as we have results, we will make an announcement. In this announcement we also post where an what additional help is needed. (f.e. a specialist of javascript programming is needed and translations of new language variables are required).
So this announcement comes for shure within January 2009. Please be patient.
In the meanwhile you could help testing all Modules wich have no Final status. Take a look on AMASP Projekt and you will see there are more then 100 not ready modules.
Matthias
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We could have a fantastic platform and then build a community of designers, marketers, and developers around it all profiting by helping companies successfully market themselves on the web and develop tools to help them run their businesses. There is incredible demand for this even in these difficult times.
Can the management team respond to this please?
I can see that the code is going to be sorted out, that is what WB community is good at, but what about the marketing? There are a lot of problems, which I see as huge opportunities to grow the popularity of the product. Is anyone looking at this?
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Hello,
just for information. The most new teamy ar buildet. At the moment we are in the process of defining our targets. As soon as this are clear, we will make an anouncement. So i only can beg you to be patient for a (short) time.
You can be shure, work on marketing is in progress. And as far as i can see it will go the right way.
Matthias
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I've been reading this topic and related ones for the last hour and at first I was sceared my pants off.
After all the information had settled down I'm still having second thoughts about the splitup between Ryan and WB.
I'm not saying it's something bad but still, if the founder leaves his house, what will happen to it and it's inhabitants?
Lets hope the future will show that it was a right decission.
I wish the WB-project and PlatformRAD all the best.
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Dear all, Ryan.
As you was able to read some months ago ...
One of the persons really interested in a Leading Position (as you maybe assumed) is me.
I aim to take responsibility into the Marketing of WebsiteBaker (primarily the Brand of WebsiteBaker and External Public Relation(ships))
This is only one of the Sections where we will need Leaders for.
I hope we can tell more in the next days.
... I was really interested to take more responsibility for the project.
But due to my duties I won't be able to invest to much time into it. Recently we opened a new Bowlingcenter (#4) where I am responsible for all the brand and promotion activities. My time is very limited.
And it would not be honest if I take this position "occupied".
I will still work FOR the community and will do some work (as you recently have seen my additions to Mr-Fan's Portable).
I will mostly do something as designer. Short term contributions. Some nice stuff.
We have built a dev team and are at the moment in internal discussions about common versions of WB. As soon as we have results, we will make an announcement. In this announcement we also post where an what additional help is needed. (f.e. a specialist of javascript programming is needed and translations of new language variables are required).
The above is something I am really glad about.
This gives hope that the WB Project will have a future.
I also want to thank all the people who helped me in the past. Especially: BerndJM, Thorn, Ruud, Chio, Aldus - this guys really helped me to understand the WB structure and they also helped me in some specific points depending on my commercial work - so thank you.
I also would like to thank all the Module Developers for their work. They make WB CMS feauterrich. That's what we all are depending on. So I owe every single one of you.
And of course to Ryan, his genius and this inspiring CMS. You set a beautifull cornerstone for all our common activities.
WebsiteBaker.
"Best things in life are simple" ;-)
Regards,
Christian M. Stefan
"Stefek"
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Hi,
just a comment to the WB Team structure.
The WB Team Chart (https://forum.WebsiteBaker.org/index.php/topic,11961.0.html) gives a very good overview how the WB Team is organized. It could be good for self-marketing reasons to show it on the WB Homepage and not somewhere deep in the forum.
I also wonder, if it makes sense to introduce also a column for a Test-Team to show that testing is fix anchored in the WB philosophy.
e.g.
-Test Management
-- Core Test
-- Core Addon Test
-- ext. Addon Test (Moduls, ...)
cheers
Uthred
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Any news about WB 2.8?
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no news...? :?
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Still working on it (not myself though). But we are not far from realease.
Anyway the latest Developmentrelease can always be found here: http://project.websitebaker2.org/browser/trunk At the bottom of the page you find a Download Link.
cheers
Klaus
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But we are not far from realease.
Hello Klaus,
sounds good.
Any suggestions in meanings of time (days, weeks, months)?
Regards..
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nope ... not from me. but check out the project server and you can see the timeline (activity).
cheers
Klaus