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Professional layout.
andy:
I do not see this. Is your text size set to normal? Please provide a screenshot. Also, if you have the webdev extension, please take a second shot with the block-level elements highlighted. Thanks!
bhhenry:
--- Quote from: andy on December 14, 2005, 04:23:41 AM ---I do not see this. Is your text size set to normal? Please provide a screenshot. Also, if you have the webdev extension, please take a second shot with the block-level elements highlighted. Thanks!
--- End quote ---
My font is set to Veranda 13.
Here is a screenshot of the menu as I see it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69084772@N00/73499687/
I don't have WebDev installed now.
andy:
It's the way your browser handles nested lists, I'm afraid. Once you manually increase the text a certain amount above what it was intended to be, stuff like this happens. It happens to me too when I do it. Unfortunately, I'm unaware of a way to change the code to accomodate people who have their text at that size. I would have to re-do the entire bounding box of the menu, which would involve messing with graphics as well as css (I've used the faux columns technique for the menu, you see).
Yeah, I could make the menu somewhat larger, but sooner or later someone would complain that their 22pt font menu is overflowing. Well, of course it is!
I've designed the page around the 800x600 "gold standard", at which size the text is quite readable. Try changing your browser font to 12pt or 11pt. I bet it goes away. I'm suprised you haven't encountered this more often. Also, it should be set to go to Tahoma by default. Perhaps you do not have this font installed.
bhhenry:
--- Quote from: andy on December 14, 2005, 09:17:26 PM ---I've designed the page around the 800x600 "gold standard", at which size the text is quite readable. Try changing your browser font to 12pt or 11pt. I bet it goes away. I'm suprised you haven't encountered this more often. Also, it should be set to go to Tahoma by default. Perhaps you do not have this font installed.
--- End quote ---
I'm not complaining, just pointing out an issue with your site. Once in a while I experience a problem with text on little boxes in web sites, but this is almost always because of an aesthetic decision on the part of the web designer. I'm not going to use tiny, unreadable text in an ugly font on my machine -- it's easier just to surf right on by to the next site which works properly.
If someone has a 21 point fantasy font selected in their browser, there is not much you can do. For real-world testing, however, you can't rely on default settings and then blame the customer if they have changed them. It's simply an age-old trade-off off between form and function. Check out the Alertbox by usability expert Jakob Nielsen http://www.useit.com/alertbox/.
800x600 was perhaps a "gold standard" back in 2001 and the days of 15 inch monitors, but for the past few years, new computers come with at least 17 inch monitors which default to 1024x768. On the last machine I set up for a customer with a LCD panel, the display defaulted to 1280x1024!
andy:
--- Quote from: bhhenry on December 14, 2005, 10:44:16 PM ---I'm not complaining, just pointing out an issue with your site.
--- End quote ---
Didn't think you were. Forgive me if I was terse, but I guess I kind of consider this an issue that people who change their font have to live with... kind of like when you modify home electronics--not the designer's responsibility, you see. That being said, though, if it breaks only two point-sizes above the default, then perhaps that's too restrictive and it needs to be modified, but only within limits. As far as I'm concerned, readability should affect content first, menus second.
--- Quote ---If someone has a 21 point fantasy font selected in their browser, there is not much you can do. For real-world testing, however, you can't rely on default settings and then blame the customer if they have changed them. It's simply an age-old trade-off off between form and function.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's the form vs. function argument. It functions regardless of font size, so it's not a one-to-one trade-off. No, I can't blame the user, but in this particular case there's nothing to do (that I know of) to accomodate them either. I can't change the list behavior and keep the images as they are, and I can't extend the bounding box without redo-ing the faux columns. Plus, there's only so much give with font before it all breaks down anyway.
I chose to base it off of 11 pt font because I thought that was a generic, good non-intruseive size for menus to be. What do you think? Should I accommodate up to a certain point?
--- Quote ---800x600 was perhaps a "gold standard" back in 2001 and the days of 15 inch monitors, but for the past few years, new computers come with at least 17 inch monitors which default to 1024x768. On the last machine I set up for a customer with a LCD panel, the display defaulted to 1280x1024!
--- End quote ---
That's an excellent point, and it's a vexing issue for me as a designer. See, here in Alaska, a lot of people still browse on some pretty old equipment, and this site is designed to cater mostly to people in Alaska who would want to know more information about these organizations.
Now, about that link you referenced me to. It's kinda fuzzy, being mostly suggestions. I would like to see him do some usibility studies on some of these issues. I think designers could benefit very much from some hard numbers to work with. It also seems you and he have a difference of opinion:
--- Quote from: Jakob Nielsen link=http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html ---Make your default font size reasonably big (at least 10 point) so that very few users have to resort to manual overrides.
--- End quote ---
So, according to him, 11pt should be fine, but you think it's too small. Though I agree with his suggestion that font size should be percentage-based as much as possible, doesn't that often cause more problems in this particular situation (especially with IE?).
I guess what I'm really getting at is(and this is also directed at DGEC): what would you suggest, and how far should I take it?
Not mad or offended, merely curious.
-Andy
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