An Open Discussion on WebsiteBaker's future

[ruebenwurzel]

Hello,

and Ruebenwurzel is still not present (and I asssume: not interesseted in the future of WB 2).

Ok here a short statement. First of all i follow all discussions, and reading all is because of my poor english knowledge often very hard to understand. So after pcwacht I'm the one who is longest here and one thing i have learned during this long time, it is not always the best to be active in every discussion. This means not, that I'm not interested. My interest in the future of WB is very big. But there where a lot of discussions in the past. A lot of good ideas are talked about but as soon as we gave those people access to change something and included them in leaderteams nothing happens and only doc and me had to do the work. Nor doc neither me want to have this rule.

So as Ryan now opens WB2 for the community (wich maybe is to late now) there is now a great chance to bring all the WB2 friends together in new teams with a new leadership. So let me say I'm open for every discussion and ideas. There are a few people wich offered leadership. And as soon as erpe told us about his team i will discuss with ryan about my favourites. And i say the same as doc. I don't need the leadership. I'm pretty shure that there are a few poeple here wich can do this job. So according to chio the first decission should be wich way WB should go, and the second decission should then be wich leader(s) make this. And both decissons should come from the community.

Matthias

[Stefek]

Hello Stefano.

I know you from the community as a helping hand.
You helped me with your Form-Module, and I have seen, that you are a real "Good Guy". Talented.

You said:

I was attracted by the project and it's easiness... but frustrated right away by the inability of WB to turn my efforts into improvements ...

I don't know exactly what happend.

But do you really think, that WB is bleeding to death? 
No way.

If this are the only considerations you have... I can't agree with you.
I also have some "Ideas" how to run a "fork". Everything needed to lance the marketing to create a new brand, new name, press and all kind of things needed in order to run the show.

But there is no reason to do this.
WB is now at a new position.
Ryan made a clear statement.
The Marketing Team has a Concept which never has been turned into reality because we had "to take patience".
Now we can open new doors.

You do not need to go and fork. Neither you nor JP.
So why don't you stay and try to communicate about your ideas, your considerations and conclusions?

I am open for changes.
WB needs all the power right now.
Keep the community together. Look what is really needed in order to improve the system.

You love WB. I love WB. The community loves WB.
As I allredy said to JP: I won't leave until I tried to support the official WB as much as I can.
It's true. Sometimes it's hard to go along with another peoples mind. But sometimes one has to accept the fact, that it is a teamwork.

New WB3 is around the corner and will be..... whatever....
Now we get to know he also had the idea (legitimate one) to produce and mantain a 'commercial' version for his own 'company'!
Well, this is not really the best new for the community!

Why it is not a good news for the community?
Maybe I am absolutly wrong, but if he will "commercialize" his new Product, so there is still something to get involved in.
But this won't take place in the next days, months. .. . ?

And WB2 can run side by side with WB3 as long as it is "comfortable" for both sides.
Until that time, there is no need to change the name, to fork, to leave or what so ever.

This is websitebakers home so far.
This is my official statement as the Marketing Team Leader.

Just to let you know.
I really understand you.

Best Regards,
Stefek

[Ryan]

Hello all,

First of all let me say I'm impressed by the immense response.
It's only been a few days since my first post and already we've had 26 replies and over 600 views!
I have addressed every single post with an individual response below...

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Reply#1@Stefek:
Thanks for your interesting statistics/graphs

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Reply#2@mr-fan/Reply#3@Stefek:
I agree the Help website is an incredibly important resource, and I hope it will only continue to grow.

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Reply#4@bupaje:
Please note, as I stated in my first post that WB will always be free. You will never have to pay, and WB will never switch. However, soon I am going to be selling a relicensed and slightly different product based off the same codebase. It will be provided as software as a service (i.e. it will be fully hosted). When it is all up-and-running, you are most welcome to check it out and move any WB sites to it if you wish. Please do not misunderstand me, I am not going to force WB users to move to this. I am simply providing another option for website owners.

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Reply#5@erpe:
Could you please list the 10 community members you are representing. I am interested in why you have decided to represent these people, rather than have them post individually.
I would be interested in talking with you further about becoming project administrator.
Basically, the way it would work is you would be elected to make any decisions regarding who is in what team, who has access to which WB admins (start/help/etc).
I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis.
If you are interested in continuing this, please let me know.
"Maybe it would lead to more success to take this thread to the German and other language forums too" - As I do not speak/read German, it is in my interest to have this thread remain an English-only thread.

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Reply#6@johnp:

"Though post like this
Quote
However, my time to spend on the version 2.x project is very, very limited. If anyone is interested in stepping into the project administrator position for the version 2.x, please feel free to nominate yourself. I would very much appreciate it if someone in our community would have more time than me to commit to the project, for the benefit of the community.
is by forth just one of the reasons there is problems within the Website baker community.
Because community members are bring up matters not team leaders or team members."
This is a matter of your opinion. I made the decision to open discussion, and the current team supports this. If the team as a whole wanted discussion to be open to the community, why wouldn't we? This discussion is pointless unless the whole community is open to it.

"I don't know, but I think some questions that are not being asked are ..Is it to late?"
In one of my emails to you, I mentioned that I hoped it wasn't too late. I am yet to receive a reply.

I look forward to the chance to communicate with you further on working together John. I would appreciate a reply to the emails I have sent.

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Reply#7@Vincent:

"Apparently there are disagreements between Ryan and some new developers"
I had the understanding that everything was ok with the communications between myself and those involved in the fork. I am a little suprised by johnp's reaction in his post.

"First of all I'd like to say that even though Ryan states to have failed as a leader, I don't blame him: he started WB as a young kid and managed to bring it as far as it is today, which I consider a truly remarkable achievement."
I appreciate the compliment. Starting this project when I was 15 was a big task, and finishing my education in 2006/2007 to put strain on my time. Now that I'm finished with education and working, I look forward to being able to spending more time on WB in the future. I also would like to say thank you for the compliments that followed this comment.

"Also I'm a little anxious that it may take a lot more time to have WB3 as rich and functional as 2.7 is right now, but we'll wait and see."
I agree. I think we won't see similar functionality until 3.1 (or potentially 3.2), which would be mid next year. 2.x definitely has a lead on 3.x, and it won't be until mid-2009 when 3.x catches up and matches the features of 2.x


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Reply#8@pcwacht:

"Fork, don't, splitting up active members is stupid and to me there is no reason to fork - there are no argueing , no direction you don't want to follow etc."
I completely agree, I think forking is just a waste of time/energy that would better be spent working together.

"WB2.8, why? What has been developped to make a new wb core? Nothing yet."
I can see many things happening with 2.x in the coming months if we can have our developers working together, rather than splitting and forking.

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Reply#9@chio:

"In my opinion the problem is not too few leadership, but too much. Too much, but incapably leadership. To be a good programmer doesnt mean to be a good leader."
An interesting take, maybe we should look at reducing the amount of people in leadership positions, and opening up tasks of general work to the community (such as making the help website a public wiki?).

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Reply#10@bupaje:

I will look into blender.. thanks for the suggestion

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Reply#11@doc:

As with reply #10, thanks for the suggestion.

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Reply#12@erpe:

"I am a little bit astonished for neither Ryan nor Christian (doc) took my post and answered my offer to step into project administration that Ryan asked for."
As I have mentioned several times, I do not have a whole heap of time for WB2. Since my first post it has only been a few days (in which time I have worked on 3.0alpha2). I am sorry that I am not as quick at replying as you would like. Please see my reply to your offer above (response to reply #5).

"So I hope, Ryan's offer was that serious as we took it.". I assure you it was.

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Reply#13@doc:

Would you be able to copy me in on your PM to erpe please Christian?

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Reply#14@cito:

"Hm, aren't the stated goals of Website baker to be simple and easy to use?"
Correct, that is why whoever is lead developer needs to maintain that fundemental goal, and ensure WB 2.x does not become bloated.

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Reply#15@Stefek:

"All we need is some tolerance and patience."
Yes, as the fundemental structure could change significantly I think everyone needs to understand this and be patient as change happens. A lot of people find it hard to accept change and avoid it. But it is a natural thing that has to happen for WB2 to move forward.

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Reply#17@Ralf (Berlin):

"@Stefek: That's exactly the problem: the leader is no longer interessted in his project but there is no need for a new leadership...
Don't you think, that there is something wrong with your statement? Wake up!"
I agree - leadership is something that must always exist. You cant just stear a boat out to sea and then have the driver go to sleep. A new driver must take charge to ensure the ship keeps going and does not crash. I hope you like my analogy

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Reply#18@BerndJM:

Yes I think the meaning of "leadership" could be a little confusing here (as I am about to address in my response to Reply#19).

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Reply#19@chio:

"Of course I talk about WebsiteBaker as the _whole thing_, not the core."
Yes, leadership needs to be taken for the WebsiteBaker project as a whole, including coordinating what happens with things not only in relation to development, but also things like documentation, who is moderating the forum, etc. Even though our development team could still be overhauled, that is a seperate issue. What I'm talking about in this post is potentially having someone else as project administrator, to do more than just code.

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Reply#20@doc:

Christian, thank you for making this statement and bringing clarity to the situation for the whole community to understand


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Reply#21@Stefek:

"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).

I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.

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Reply#22@Ralph(Berlin):

"This mean: we have shurely to talk about a team which is willed to continue the development of WB 2 and we will still need a leadership for this team."
Yes that is the purpose for this post

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Reply#23@Stefek:

"there is no reason to nominate a new leadership."
I disagree. The project needs someon to overlook everything related to what is happening. Someone to be in control and to "steer the ship" and ensure everything is moving forward in a positive manner, and that everyone is communicating properly and is "on the same page".

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Reply#24@sharmpro:

"Well, this is not really the best new for the community! "
I'm a little confused by this statement.. Do you mean "news" or "new"?

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Reply#25@ruebenwurzel:

"A lot of good ideas are talked about but as soon as we gave those people access to change something and included them in leaderteams nothing happens and only doc and me had to do the work"
Matthias, thank you for bringing this up. I should have pointed this out earlier. It is a problem than most of our community are probably not aware of - although we have a list of "teams" and "contributors", many of them are not active and one of my main motivations for this post is to involve the latest bunch of active users in contributing.

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Reply#26@Stefek:

"But do you really think, that WB is bleeding to death?  grin
No way."
I agree. I think "bleeding to death" is an exaggeration.

"I also have some "Ideas" how to run a "fork"... there is no reason to do this. WB is now at a new position."
"So why don't you stay and try to communicate about your ideas, your considerations and conclusions?"
Stefek I very much appreciate your words, I hope they are convincing enough to keep users with our community including both JP and shampro.

"Why it is not a good news for the community?
Maybe I am absolutly wrong, but if he will "commercialize" his new Product, so there is still something to get involved in.
But this won't take place in the next days, months. .. . ?"

I just want to re-iterate again. WebsiteBaker 3 will be open source, all applications (Pages/Media) and addons will be open for development just like with WebsiteBaker 2. The only way my commercial project will be linked to WebsiteBaker 3 is in that it will be supporting the development of it.

"And WB2 can run side by side with WB3 as long as it is "comfortable" for both sides.
Until that time, there is no need to change the name, to fork, to leave or what so ever."
Agreed.

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Well hopefully I have covered everything as well as possible.
It seems there were many interpretations of my first post, and hopefully my responses above have cleared any uncertainty.
I look forward to these discussions continuing

Ryan

[ruebenwurzel]

@ryan

woow  .

and hopefully my responses above have cleared any uncertainty

I think so. Now for the upcoming new leaders team the way to go should be clear. Thanks.

Matthias

[Luckyluke]

Hi,

I hope I understand my English good in reading everything above. Yet a small reaction.
I hope that WB is not going the way like Mambo and Joomla. So 2 separate products. Two different versions are OK for me but not 2 competitive products.

Grtz,
Luc

[johnp]

Ryan,

I would just like to reply that I have sent you replies and if needed I can resend. please have another look in your in box as I just sent you a email 17 hours ago and I am waiting on a reply from that.

JP

[doc]

Reply#21@Stefek:

"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).

I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.

Yepp, Ryans estimate on that topic is right

Regards Christian

[Stefek]

Reply#21@Stefek:

"I don't think that there is any reason for "resignation".
I don't think Christian is actually saying he is resigning here. From what I gather he is happy to continue doing what he is doing, but not wanting to accept even more responsibility (which I completely understand).

I think it would be too much for just Christian to try and do everything, so I don't expect him to take on so much.

Yepp, Ryans estimate on that topic is right

Regards Christian

Never expected you to do everything alone, Christian 
But knowing you as a leader for a long time, it's not easy to understand, that you want completly leave this position.
But it's your decision and I accept this, as I already told you in chat.

Regards,
Stefek

[Ryan]

But knowing you as a leader for a long time, it's not easy to understand, that you want completly leave this position.
But it's your decision and I accept this, as I already told you in chat.

Christian, just to clarify again for Stefek. You are not stepping down/out of the leaders team, are you?

@JP: I haven't received a single email from you since the 5th Nov. Maybe try sending through my web form (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact)?

@Luckyluke: The situation with Mambo/Joomla was a lot different, so what happened there is not happening here.

[Stefek]

Hello Ryan.
You said:

Reply#1@Stefek:
Thanks for your interesting statistics/graphs

So, if you like Graphs, here is another one.

I talked to a lot of the active members in order to analyse the "Leadership is bad" generalization.


No "Bad Leadership"
The result and the final analysis shows, that this is just a generalization and not a fact.
But it is also true, that the developement team is not lined up correctly and a lot of efforts is ending up in frustrations.
I am NOT saying they are not doing a good job. It's not a lag of competency by individual coders. We have some real good coders. The dev-team is bringing up real WB like products ("Keep it simple").

Dev Team - No Leadership at all
But, unfortunatly, this section has NO leading at all. No "superior roadmap, objectives", and it is really hard for new coders to be intergrated into the official group.

What' going on?
So just let take a look at the illustration:

The Product is good.
The Forum/Support is not bad.
Marketing (this team is very new and will bring up some new ideas in order to get WB more popular, the roadmap is done.)


Need of Change
So the final analysis shows, that there is just one section of the whole WebsiteBaker Project, which deserves more attention.

And this will be - as a team - the main target to be done.
I am very confident, that this will happen in the next time.

So, this is my opinion about "WebsiteBaker's future":
It looks promising.

People are interested in simplicity. The whole life is comlex enough. This is the simple power of WebsiteBaker.
So, to the Coders (official and "unofficial"), keep it simple, talk simple, find a simple way to communicate about your ideas. We do not need "democracy" for this is not a political project. 
We need Ideas to keep it simple.

This is my opinion.
I am no coder.
I know you guys are thinking in another dimensions depending on your job.
You have new ideas how and where WebsiteBaker can be improved (simplified?).
Everyone of the people I talked to (over 90% of them) wants only the best for WebsiteBaker's future.

Good Luck.
I will follow this up and I will help as much as I can to make this a fact.

Regards,
Stefek

[centran]

Forking the project would be a waste. WB2 has limitations that I thought WB3 was going to address. While we all love WB2 it is time to move on to an improved version. I think the faster WB3 gets to a point where people can contribute to it that the forking discussion will subside. It would be a shame to fork WB2 becuase the more people helping WB3 the better it will be. I also feel that is is kind of pointless becuase by the time WB2 is forked off and a new version developed then WB3 will all ready be at development point equal to WB2 or beyond. Why work on outdated code and a core structure that was considered flawed and fixed in WB3?

Right now I think the best course of action is to get WB3 to a point where you feel comfortable launching a SVN for it. Once that is set up then I think some leadership re-ordering is in order.

It is obvious that the people leading WB are all coders. What you need is a project manager who would do limited coding. You need a project manager that knows the main code developers strengths and weakness and how long it takes them to code. That way tasks can be assigned appropriately.
Maybe this is how you guys are doing it but I get the feeling that everything is kind of "mish mash" right now.

However, I am not saying you need someone bossing you around. Just assigning tasks. The main code developers should be having weekly meetings to discuss features, scope, bugs, time restraints, tasks that need to be addressed, who would like to take on tasks. After that meeting then the Project Manager can assign any milestones and hand out coding tasks to the main code developers.

Also, I feel you should be utilizing the open source community more. I believe you have some talented coders on the forum that would rather not step up to help develop WB becuase they don't have time. I say that if you have a non essential feature/bug that will take more then 30minutes to hour to fix but not less then 5 hours then maybe you should put out a "Call for Coding Help" on the forum. List the problem and how you would like it fixed if anyone has a spare couple hours. That way you guys can concentrate on more important stuff and hope the community will step up to help you out. It might be a good way to cut out some of the small issue but time consuming coding from your schedules.

It seems the main issue is just with organization. Get someone who will minimally code but is good at managing. Ryan, I know this is your baby and I am not trying to say someone should replace you or boss you around. You obviously want WB3 to go in a certain direction but it seems you rather lock yourself up in a room and just start coding away. If you get a project manager then that is exactly what you will be able to do. Tell him/her where you want things to go and they can push the development team in the right direction by assigning tasks and making sure things get done. That way you don't have to worry about what others are doing and concentrate on coding like you want too.

[sharmpro]

Once again i got "one step forward and two backward" into understanding the all issue:
Please help me out...

1. Ryan is going his way with WB3 (open source) but under his full controll (like it was for WB2) and the "commercial+features" one. These,and his new open approach to 'commercialize' some feature/service do not sounds good toward a new way to manage the WB3. IT SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WB2 WAS!

2. WB2 is left to the community, apparently

3. The community find out there's no 'Community' structure, nor decision-makers... a full 'democratic' anarchy.

4. The 'former' leader now is trying to appoint some 'volatile' titles to the herarchy he didn't let take place on WB2 for years

5. He still state: "I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis...." WHAT !!!???. SO FOR DAILY ISSUES NO PROBLEM, BUT WHAT ABOUT STRATEGIC ONES ??!!

6. Fork or not fork is not the issue: A RADICAL CHANGE IS !!! The 'programming/coding' can be an easy task but managing....

7. So far many users are concern about wasted energies.... All this pull-and-push, hide-and-seek is going to wast much more time, energies and wb user's willingness to take an active part into what will be next! (I'm one of those)

8. So, if the 'non programming/ non coding' issues will not be not solved very soon, either way... YES the WB2 project will continue to bleed to death missing chances to improve,to adapt to new media,technologies and opportunities. A slow but unavoidable death.
...
...
...

Regards,

Stefano a.k.a sharmpro

[kweitzel]

Hi Stefano (also hi JohnP),

I agree with you, currently there is no much information in the open. Even not from me (for example). Personally I am trying to find out who is going where and who is in boat with whom. But since nobody gives any names, that is more than difficult to judge the differnet factions.

I am currently trying to formulate a structure into WB2 which does incorporate all factions if they are willing to work together. That is why I am in communication with all possible people. In the last days I have clocked over 8 h of phoneconversations and chats with various people including you. But again, nobody is giving anything propper to work with.

I currently favour a "3 people as leader" approach instead of 1 single person. The advantage of this is that you can:

a) distribute the work for different areas of WebsiteBaker
b) have a contact for the areas (e.g. infrastructure, development, community)
c) The decision process will always come to a decision (e.G. 3 - 0 or 2 - 1)

So this kind of setup enshures, that nobody will be "overworked" by handling everything but at the same time there will always be a contact available.

Example organisation see attached image

cheers

Klaus

[gelöscht durch Administrator]

[johnp]

Hello Ryan,

I have been sending you emails via webmail and through your official contact form http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ to reach you since before 21 of October.

I have sent you 2 emails in the past 24 hours along with a cc in the emails to Doc and Stefano and myself.

I have just sent you another request through http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ again just in the past 5 minutes.

So stop making a mockery of me within this forum for your personal gain, as we both know you are getting the emails, as I am monitoring there delivery status

JP

[Stefek]

Hello!
JP just send me a PM and because
it is of interest for this Thread, I will answer here:

as a personal note how did you come up with your stats as if this was done just within the past couple days you didn't contact me about this..

Jp

Hello Mr. Parker
The "forkers" has been not interviewed.
You already left.

Fact is, that the main "Problem" lies in the developement and it's non existent leadership. That's WHY you (for example) decided to leave.

And yes it is also a problem of a lag of certainty about Ryans personal goals.

This issue is also building some "walls" for the Marketing Team and has been (for me, personally) the main "stoping factor" (my approach is allways to set "long term strategies").

@Ryan - You should provide some answers. Because you said:

I agree - leadership is something that must always exist. You cant just stear a boat out to sea and then have the driver go to sleep. A new driver must take charge to ensure the ship keeps going and does not crash. I hope you like my analogy

You should also give the rest of your "power" over to the community. Otherwise we really have a reason to think, that you are playing a game with all of us.
At the other hand I can accept, if you stay and lead or give "authority" to the Leadership. But you then should provide a "whishlist" how to run the show, the purpose of all of this and so fort.
You maybe should open a thread named "Ryans whishlist for WB 2 Developement and Marketing".
This would give certainty to everyone of us.

There is no problem then to run the show.
But at this time you say:
"Guys, I leave you alone - I don't need you so much for my future Plans, but you can stay and play (I only take my hand at the whole thing)."

I am just honest enough to tell you this.
There is a chance for WebsiteBaker 2 and 3 going Hand in Hand as a whole Project.
The Marketing efforts of the next time CAN also help you with your "Commercialized" Project. But only if you provide real and honest answers.
And this will help US to keep the Community alive and let it grow and prosper.

Yes, I like your analogy with the driver and the car.
I do like to have a competent driver.
But I don't like the idea of being in the position where "somewhere over the rainbow" is another "driver" with GPS access for my car who can stop and take control over it whenever he wants.

Democracy is a nice "word".
Without having the chance to make a choice of the "GPS Driver" it is not democracy. It's then a monarchy. ( I won't going so far to say it is then a dictatorship, because in this case you still have "orders" and "plans" - some chaotic ones, but you know the rules in some degree .)

I have no problem with monarchy or considering you as "Lord Ryan" 

But it's not good for the survival of your own goals (and you stil need a community for WB3).


So why don't you take the responsibility for the whole thing. Your "child" WebsiteBaker.

Is there something we should know?
Why this GPS fallback?

We need Answers and Decisions so we can judge about the value of our efforts.

Regards,
Stefek

[johnp]

@ Stefek

I would like to thank you for the past post.

I agree with the following.

And as you stated

So why don't you take the responsibility for the whole thing. Your "child" WebsiteBaker.

Is there something we should know?
Why this GPS fallback?

We need Answers and Decisions so we can judge about the value of our efforts.

Yes! Step up to the plate and be a man Ryan and take responsibility in steed of trying to pass the buck.
If this is not your cup of tea anymore then let it go. move on to WB3 as you have done. Pass the Responsibility
to someone else (All not part) .

As i am going to take some of my own advise..

JP

[outsider]

Hello community,

long time no see, just stepping in after escpro was telling me WB is splitting.


Just a few words from a "blacksheep" (and let's see if this post gets deleted again...):

I divided quite a long time with the official core team due several reasons.
(later more to this...)

In my opinion, WB2 is not that bad, but let's clarify some things:

wb2 core is not stable, not secure!
I've done a proof-of-concept at my favourite notary, which makes me allowed to say this statement without getting sued.

Reason for this is the neverending patchwork, but not rewriten base.


The leadership has failed in some really urgent things, BUT THEY MADE DECISIONS (which is good), instead of hoping for something (which some other members here prefer)...

Therefore i decided to go my way, go "commercial";
this means, i use WB2, but give commercial support.
(i have read a very interesting post in the past about sueing me by using the brand "WebsiteBaker"...)

Nevertheless i will continue using this name, because nobody can circumvent this (believe me, i've studied it a lot before going in this direction...)

The last 2 months, i made about 12.000 € with my projects "WebsiteBaker PLUS", "WebsiteBaker Hosting", 2x "WebsiteBaker Templates" and "WebsiteBaker Club", so my decision to go this way was pretty good 
(i can't speak for my team mate escpro, but i think, he won't work with me, if he won't earn enough money  )

At the beginning, i thought about giving back some money to WB, but then i remembered how everything startet...

Where to donate? Who will get this money?


As you can see in the structure i built, there is help for free (which always should be!) and there is commercial support.
Companies like to know, how much a website will cost.
They don't want to use free software when they can't estimate how much it will cost get it running the way they need.


And the marketing team:
OMG, WHEN will be the day, this team will do it's job...

Funniest was the part, when i heard that they did a deal with allink;
sure, not bad, but it is better to do this on the own (like i did).

WB would earn A LOT, and all the CORE MEMBERS would be able to participate in earning money with WB, but unfortunately there is no TOGETHER, there is always MY BABY.
(even chio broke his promise about WebsiteBaker.at will always link to wb.org)


Guys, this is not only a matter of leadership, this is SERIOUSLY the road to death!

Let's look a bit to Joomla:
sure, not everything is going well there, also after splitting from Mambo;
but it works.

Sure, WB shouldn't get as messy as them (in case of the code lines), but it should be more "mature".

@chio, doc, all the others:
For example, wouldn't it be better if you could do what you like (coding, design, think about improvement), and even get paid for it?
Not argueing with others about CSS or other rubbish things?

I know, everybody has his own projects on the run, but why shouldn't the community be able to make a list, where everybody can enter what he can do/what he likes to do...?


Management/leading begins in thinking global, then realize in detail...
A leader must be able to code, to understand what the others are capable of doing.
A leader must be able to read/write in english and german fluently, because these two languages are the most visited parts in the forum.
A leader must have connections to other projects (i.e. FCKEditor).
And at least, he needs the nerve to say NO 

Well, just some thoughts from a black sheep (which was marked from the old leaders team, which is now very confused...  )

PS:
sorry, i can't deny it:

For we are the community and we fought allready to many fights with "Blacksheeps" and "Know-Bests".

YES, Stefek, you are the last...

[kweitzel]

The User has been banned in the past and has been banned under his "new" alias.

regards

Klaus

[Stefek]

The User has been banned in the past and has been banned under his "new" alias.

regards

Klaus

Well done, Klaus. 

@Alex
You're unable to understand what a community is. You will never be able to understand me.
You are living a totally diffrent philosophy.

You can earn hunderds and tousands of dollars without having any fun with this, no community, no friends, no one who is gaining enything else but crap.

You remember the 50 Euro Template you wanted to sell me?
Seeing your trick in your "wannabe-portal" I've laughed to death.
Matthias and me made a full automatic Menu with SM2 which was much more accessible.
But you cant't share anything. So the only one who banned you is you yourself. You're the victim of your own mistakes.

If this is your choice - that's fine with me. You will never establish something of worth.

Alltghough you are right in some points, your intentions will never allow to make this happen.
You do not have the nuts to let people know who you are. Therefore you will never be anythig - for life is a community-effort.

So make money-money.

Stefek

[centran]

I thought I would chime in after reading some more of what is going on.

Ryan, you need to sit down and think long and hard about where you want WB to go. For WB to survive and this awesome community to stay intact then you will need to loosen your grip a little bit.

I am not saying you should say that this is a democracy and take votes on everything. With the state WB3 is in then nothing would get done! WB3 needs to get to state where it can be opened up to the community.

What should happen is that we should be a mix between a democracy and a monarchy. This is why I recommended assigning someone as a project manager. That way Ryan can concentrate on programing but at the same time tell the project manager... "I want this and that done." or, "I am going to work on this, have the other guys do whatever."

I basically picture a WB community where Ryan is not openly running things on the "outside" but "inside" whatever he says goes.


Or... Am I completely wrong in assuming people want to fork becuase of the community? Is it seriously that they like the WB2 core and don't want WB3? Or is it becuase of leadership?
To those that want to fork WB2 why not wait a couple months for WB3 to be released and then fork from WB3? It seems stupid to me to continue on with WB2 as the various difficulties maintaining the code are being addressed in WB3(or at least that is what I am to believe)

[Ryan]

Firstly...

I would just like to reply that I have sent you replies and if needed I can resend. please have another look in your in box as I just sent you a email 17 hours ago and I am waiting on a reply from that.

@JP: I haven't received a single email from you since the 5th Nov. Maybe try sending through my web form (http://ryandjurovich.com/contact)?

I have been sending you emails via webmail and through your official contact form http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ to reach you since before 21 of October.
I have sent you 2 emails in the past 24 hours along with a cc in the emails to Doc and Stefano and myself.
I have just sent you another request through http://ryandjurovich.com/contact/ again just in the past 5 minutes.
So stop making a mockery of me within this forum for your personal gain, as we both know you are getting the emails, as I am monitoring there delivery status

John, I would like to publicly apologise for not replying to your emails.
Also, to anyone who sent me emails in the last few days... I have only just resolved a problem with my WB email account so I have replied to them all just now.

-----

Now, I would like to reply to the other posts the came after my last reply:

-----

Reply#34@Stefek:

- I dont think the leadership is bad, I just think it needs to be much much better
- We do need more firm targets set for development.
- I do realise our community is generally happy with the WB 2.x product.
- Our forum support is good.
- I haven't been very involved with the marketing team, but I am happy that they are brainstorming and working on some good ideas.

----

Reply#35@centran:

"I think the faster WB3 gets to a point where people can contribute to it that the forking discussion will subside"

- I don't really agree with this. WB3 is a separate issue to WB2, and I don't really see how not being able to contribute to WB3 would encourage a fork of WB2.

"It would be a shame to fork WB2 becuase the more people helping WB3 the better it will be."

- Again, WB2 is separate so I don't see why if people were working on a WB2 why they couldn't work on WB3.

"Right now I think the best course of action is to get WB3 to a point where you feel comfortable launching a SVN for it. Once that is set up then I think some leadership re-ordering is in order."

- This will only happen with time, and probably won't happen until after the 3.0 stable release.

"It is obvious that the people leading WB are all coders. What you need is a project manager who would do limited coding. You need a project manager that knows the main code developers strengths and weakness and how long it takes them to code. That way tasks can be assigned appropriately."

- Why can I not be both a coder and manager? :S I dont have time to code or manage 2.x, but with 3.x I will both code and manage.

"However, I am not saying you need someone bossing you around. Just assigning tasks. "

- For the 2.x development, I do believe we need someone assigning tasks.

"It seems the main issue is just with organization."

- I have pointed this out from the started. Leadership and organisation is the main problem here.

"Ryan, I know this is your baby and I am not trying to say someone should replace you or boss you around."

- I do want someone to reply my position for WB2, and we have several good candidates to do so. However, with WB3 I do not see someone replacing my position for a long, long time.

"You obviously want WB3 to go in a certain direction but it seems you rather lock yourself up in a room and just start coding away."

- I am only "locking myself up in a room" to get 3.0 out the door, once this is done, I will take a more distanced stance on coding, and work more on management.

Centran I think you have it back to front. I would prefer manage rather than code, not the other way around. However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.

----

Reply#36@shampro:

"1. Ryan is going his way with WB3 (open source) but under his full controll (like it was for WB2) and the "commercial+features" one. These,and his new open approach to 'commercialize' some feature/service do not sounds good toward a new way to manage the WB3. IT SOUNDS EVEN WORSE THAN THE WB2 WAS!.

I think once you see the full picture, you will understand why this will make things a lot better. It is only because you cannot possible see the big picture (as I haven't and can't really explain it at this time), that you would think it is even worse.

"2. WB2 is left to the community, apparently" - Yes

3. I am going to make sure we have the right people in place to be the "decision makers". This is my main point to this whole post - assigning new leadership within the community.

4. "The 'former' leader now is trying to appoint some 'volatile' titles to the herarchy he didn't let take place on WB2 for years"

- I have tried several times in the past to get more leadership in place. However no one has ever been willing to make the commitment required. If we had this many motivated community members in the past willing to step up, we would have had these conversations a long time ago.

"5. He still state: "I would like to maintain access to all sites as well, however you would be "running the show" on the day-to-day basis...." WHAT !!!???. SO FOR DAILY ISSUES NO PROBLEM, BUT WHAT ABOUT STRATEGIC ONES ??!!"

- No, I think you have misunderstand my intentions for this. I simply want access to ensure that if I had over control to someone and they do the wrong thing, I can revoke their powers and make sure that the community continues for the better. It will be impossible for me to know the real intentions of anyone I appoint. It is in my interest to still have access, because I would hate to see my "baby" taken down by malicious activity. I am not saying anyone is intending on harming the project, all I am saying is that for the protection of the community, I would like to still have access. I am 100% absolutely not going to try and kill the project myself for strategical reasons.

"6. Fork or not fork is not the issue: A RADICAL CHANGE IS !!! The 'programming/coding' can be an easy task but managing...."

- While it is not the only issue, it is one of the main factors at this point. Please don't disregard it as a non-issue.

----

Reply#37@kweitzel:

Klaus I like your concept of having three leaders. If we could make this work it would be great (as long as all three are continually active).
The only problem is if one person stopped being active, the two would have to either be held back by the 3rd, or make decisions without them (which defeats the purpose).
In terms of putting names to people, maybe I should start opening nominations so that people can nominate themselves for positions?
That way we get to see exactly who would like to be exactly what..

----

Reply#39@Stefek:

"And yes it is also a problem of a lag of certainty about Ryans personal goals."

- I hope I have already addressed these in this post. If not, please feel free to question me further on what my goals are.

"You should also give the rest of your "power" over to the community. Otherwise we really have a reason to think, that you are playing a game with all of us."

- I have stated many times already, I would like someone(s) to step into the position of "power", which would effectively hand the power over to the community. I am not trying to play games. If you feel this way please tell me how I can change that.

"you then should provide a "whishlist" how to run the show, the purpose of all of this and so fort."

- I have already detailed what I'd like to see happen with 2.8.x, besides that, I don't mind where things go in terms of marketing/community structure for WB2.

"There is a chance for WebsiteBaker 2 and 3 going Hand in Hand as a whole Project."

- Absolutely. 2.x and 3.x will mutually benefit each other in terms of marketing, as it is a common name.

With regards to democracy/monarchy. For 2.x, I am happy for the yet-to-be elected leaders to make the decisions. For 3.x, I will make the decisions. In both situations however, it is very important to poll the community on what the community wants, and then take this into consideration when making final decisions.

----

In reply to both #39@Stefek and #40@Johnp
You have said that I need to step up and take responsibility. I thought when I said "I accept for responsibility for the poor leadership over the last few years." that I made it clear I was accepting responsibility for the current situation. Obviously I haven't conveyed my message clearly enough. What I am trying to do with this post is finally take some sort of action with improving leadership and development for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Comments like "Step up to the plate and be a man Ryan" I find to be unnecessary and derogatory, considering my age and all.

----

Reply#42@kweitzel:

This user contacted me directly complaining that he was banned and copied me in on his post (above). Based on what I have read from this post, I can see why. His attitude is definitely not in the right spirit of Open Source.

----

Reply#43@Stefek:

I agree it appears Alex is living a different philosophy than the majority of us.

----

Reply#44@centran:

"Ryan, you need to sit down and think long and hard about where you want WB to go. For WB to survive and this awesome community to stay intact then you will need to loosen your grip a little bit."

- One option I have considered is branding WB3 as a different name. It is not the same product, and the way in which I intend to run the community is different. By doing this it would allow those passionate about WB2 to continue developing it and running the community around it like it has been run. The WB2 could have major changes to the core and a version 3.x could come as a result of it. It's just an idea so please nobody overreact to this suggestion! I would be interested to hear everyones thoughts on me branding WB3 as a different project altogether, and thus allowing WB to continue along the path it naturally would follow.

"To those that want to fork WB2 why not wait a couple months for WB3 to be released and then fork from WB3? It seems stupid to me to continue on with WB2 as the various difficulties maintaining the code are being addressed in WB3(or at least that is what I am to believe)"

- WB2 still has life in it. In case you have missed what I already said, it will be some time before WB3 will catch up to 2.x in terms of features (maybe mid next year?). Therefore, I believe that it is worth continuing to develop a 2.8.x version.

----

If anyone feels that I have left anything out or has any further questions please feel free to ask them.

I think that it has come to a point where we should have nominations for positions in a new team structure. Once those positions have be applied for, we can then make a decision on who will best fill it. I am very keen to see what JohnP can do, as he has been very open and honest about what he would like to do for the community.

Also, I hope that we can get a resolve on the current situation in a timely manner

[Seppel]

Hello,

However, to see WB3 have EXACTLY what I want in the first release, I must do it myself as it is quicker to do this than to try and coordinate several people to do it.

I think this is the wrong intention. As a manager you have to let other people do the coding, you have to trust their skills. Of course, you should have convinced yourself of their abilitites. It may be that the first release of WB3 can be published quicker than with coordinating other people's tasks, but the question is: is the quality of the product also better?

Besides as a manager you should have very good conversation skills, but like you say, you are not willed to coordinate several people to do the first release of WB3. How do you want to make it in the future? Maybe you are not willed to coordinate for the second, third etc. release?

I do not want to blame you, but like other people said in this thread, you should perhaps think about the point, if you really want to manage and if you really think you can handle it. Being a coder in a project is no shame, no, it is an important part in the development of a software system.

Now I want to come to an important point: Coding is not the most important part in developing a software system. I do not know how WB was developed, but were modeling languages used? Have the models been checked, whether they are correct? Was it considered which people may use WB? Which impacts this should have on the functional and the qualitative aspects of WB? Was it considered which script/programming languages would fit the needs best or were they chosen, because they were the only known by the coder/coders? Was it considered how to make the product known by the people?

This are some exemplary questions, but questions which are fundamental for professional software development. Many of you guys have the intention to make WB a long-living project, but I think with the lack of real professional development effort, this includes the need for people which have skills in the important parts of software engineering, this will fail. I believe that one major problem in involving people which have the skills is, there is no money to pay them. To make a professional open source project needs the same eager and time than to make a commercial product, considered you want to be able to compete with the professional software. Therefore the people involved have to work hard and (even) full-time and they have to eat and drink. How should they do it without money?

Thus, to make it happen, there must be more effort, more professionality to earn money in other ways, if you want WB to be open source. This, I think, is also a problem of this project.

Let me say again: I do not want to blame the people involved in this project, no, I really like this project. I only want to show that more professionality is important. Open source projects, which want to survive in the business, have to be put forward with the same professionality like other commercial projects.

Best regards,
Seppel

[Ryan]

Seppel,

Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.

I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.

Now, with regards to managing a team of developers for future WB3 development - I assure you I can handle it. The main reason why I wanted to develop 3.0 myself was that I wanted the framework to be done in a specific way that I felt was just easier to do myself. Now that the ground work has been put in, i'm not far away from bringing other people on board to accelerate the speed of development

Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.

Ryan

[sharmpro]

Seppel,

Please understand that I've been running my own business since the start of the year. I manage the staff and I am enjoying working in a managerial position. While I am not talking to staff or working on strategical decisions, I am either doing sales calls or coding.

I don't want to be talking myself up to much here, but I have been coding in PHP for 7 years now, and I've learnt a lot about things such as design, modelling, OO coding, testing, etc. in the last few years. I've got a lot of experience with systems in many different languages and environments, I have used PHP for projects ranging from POS to e-commerce. If you would, please take a look at the WB3 alpha release very closely before commenting on how professional it is.
...
...
Also, because WB3 will be commercially supported by my own company, it will definitely maintain a high level of professionalism in everything from code to marketing.

Ryan

I Ryan,
i can assure nobody is trying to rate you and your job. What you want to develop, the for that makes YOU more confortable, your OO experience, the systems you know... WHO CARES!?.
Dont tell me there's nobody like you......

Grow up.

Stefano

[Vincent]

I'm getting a little worried about this discussion. I experienced both Sharmpro and Johnp as very helpful and alert forum members over the past months.

But in this thread you seem like different persons!
Your tone of voice is quite unpleasant I must say. Both of you seem very exited all the time, and frankly speaking I find you insulting. Although both of you obviously are no native English speakers (nor am I), you normally communicate clearly. But in this thread anger makes both of your writings not only offensive, but often it is almost impossible to understand what you are exactly trying to say.

I think we all should acknowledge that everyone in this community wants the best for all of us, so there is no need be mistrustful as you are.
Personally I'd leave the community if I suspected the team leaders of personal benefits in stead of trying to do what's best for all of us. Mind you, I hope both of you stay committed, but I surely hope you find a more elegant way of expressing your frustrations.

Vincent